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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404125 times)

Makbeth

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5430 on: November 01, 2010, 03:56:35 pm »

I wasn't trying to imply any of that.  Just saying that our sense of time isn't an accurate representation of what time is, the same way our five senses aren't an accurate representation of light, sound, electrostatic repulsion, and chemistry.  Our senses are designed to help us navigate the world through the interpretation of certain data.  Your sense of sight represents objects as solid when they're really mostly empty space, omits most of the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, and only gives the most vague hints about the nature of lightwaves.  Sight is such an abstraction that we're still working on figuring out what light is. 

The way the universe is, and the way we first perceive it, are very, very different things.  Our sense of time is no less distorted.  It's not because our senses are trying to trick us, it's just that it makes it easier for the mind of a child to learn not to injure oneself or get eaten, which is more important in terms of individual survival than knowing the actual density of particles in an object or the exact wavelength, speed, direction, and amplitude of the light waves entering the eyes.

When I said before that we perceive time the way it is because that's the only way we can make sense of it, that wasn't really a complete description, as Starver pointed out.  It's more of a result of the way entropy works.  When an event happens, the energy associated with that event immediately begins dispersing into the surrounding environment in various ways (light, sound, movement of nearby objects, etc).  You can think of this as similar to ripples on a pond.  Anything outside the zone that the ripples have spread to (let's assume we're only talking about the light of the event here)  is unaffected by and unaware of the event.  Because entropy (think of entropy as how "spread out" a given amount of energy is) always increases in one direction in time, the ripples always spread outward from an event as we approach the future, never inward.  The brain of an observer can only be aware of an event once those ripples have reached it. 

To have time go in the other direction would be similar to Starver's stone-throwing pond; it would require the observer to know of the event in advance, and then forget it, and in the process actually help to cause it by converting those memories to nerve impulses traveling to the eyes, which then send out light beams that converge simultaneously with other beams from every direction and provide the energy to cause the event in reverse.  So yes, if you saw time backwards, telekinesis would be real, but you'd have to forget things in order to make them happen, even though your memory of it would be clearest in the instant before you forgot it.

That actually sounds pretty cool.

So, that's why the brain can only remember events in the past (meaning when entropy is less, not what the observer considers the past) no matter which direction they'd percieve time in.  And that's why we don't see the whole "tape" at once.  Well, I guess at the last instant before you die (or, for those who live backward, at the instant you un-die), assuming you had a perfect memory, you actually could perceive the entire portion of the cosmic videotape that you directly experienced.  It may sound like it but I'm actually not saying it's in any way related to the saying that your life flashes before your eyes when you die, the similarity is entirely a coincidence. (see what I mean though about myths echoing reality?)

But just because we can only remember things in one direction, that doesn't mean that everything in the other direction is undefined.  This is apparent when you consider that for those who live backward (and just to be clear, I am NOT saying that such beings exist, just using them as a thought experiment to illustrate my point), everything that they directly experience is defined for them at the beginning of their lives.  As they "age", they remember a given event more clearly, then perfectly, then forget it completely as they contribute energy to it.  But, even though they forgot it, and they are completely unaffected by it for the "first time", that doesn't mean it didn't unhappen.  The fact is that it did unhappen, even though nobody is aware of it.  For us, we are not aware of what events lie in our future, but that doesn't mean they're undefined.

Is this idea testable?  As far as I know, absolutely not.  So, it can't be a true feature of physics.  But it's self-consistent and works on paper, and it's possible that some day a physicist derives a hypothesis from this idea that can be tested, so it's worth keeping in mind.  It's somewhat like string theory (that's a misnomer, should be string hypothesis) in that regard; currently untestable ideas that nevertheless do a good job of explaining otherwise unexplainable things, and through further development may eventually lead to hypotheses that can be tested.
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Diso Faintpuzzles was born in 120.  Although accounts vary it is universally agreed that Diso was chosen by fate as the vanguard of destiny.

In the early spring of 143 Diso began wandering the wilds.

In the early spring of 143 Diso starved to death in the Horn of Striking.

Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5431 on: November 02, 2010, 12:01:55 pm »

But my post (at least that part of it) was mostly concerned with how we perceive time, and how our perception of time misleads us into thinking of the future as something that hasn't happened yet.
My only problem with that is that "our perception" is itself merely (to my mind... if you'll excuse me falling (leaping!) into the same trap!) a function of the universe's progression, so there's no other way than for a moment of consciousness to consider 'past' things as in the past and 'future' things as yet to come.  Much as a snooker ball can only be positioned on a table according to collisions that have happened and without consideration for collisions yet to be.  It's a philosophical nitpick which I'm sure can be outpedanted with arguments nobody has yet made me aware of, though.

Personal opinion/feeling here which can't really be tested, but I imagine the universe as a huge "Game of Life" (if you will) where things happen because of what happened previous.  This atom pushed this other atom and now it is here.  This atom lost it's cohesion and spun off to bind with this other one.  You can make a guess on which direction it will go, and you can try to manipulate that and change the future, but only if you can somehow calculate the infinite possible outcomes to said "bump."

Saying that the future has already occurred just doesn't make sense to me and it feels a bit like someone searching for a reason to believe in time travel and/or an entity that can surpass all time (ie: someone searching for God or a way to break the rules and in doing so prove that those rules were created and flawed.) [snip, but rest of the point is also well made]

Instead of Conways GoL, look at Rule 110, or other variants on that same theme.  Same principle, but can be considered simpler to view either instantaneously (a line of off/ons) or 'timelessly' (a sheet of success results, each on the row below the one that caused it).  I tend to talk about the 'static' tapestry of time, and that's what you're seeing when looking at the triangular 'sheet' of the timeless version.  By one point of view, the successive line is solely reliant upon the line above, thus indicating that there's a single arrow of time in operation.  But that's not to say that for every line N, one might not find a single solution to line N-1, all the way up until the point where the automata 'ends' at its what is normally its single starting seed pixel.

I don't even know if there is just one single N-1 solution to every normally possible line N.  Trying to reverse a GoL board, the ultimate problem is that a completely blank board could have resulted, one tick 'backwards' from an unlimited number of "sufficiently disconnected lone cells" dying off, in a similarly unlimited number of actual placements across the infinite surface, but as a blank board isn't a useful 'viable' precursor to anything other than a blank board this might be termed a 'possible' layout, but not one that's viable.  (Except in an "always was empty, always will be empty" sense.)  But there are also non-blank layouts that can arise from multiple precursor layouts.  'Decaying down' from pixel-rich versions or 'expanding out' from pixel-poor ones, as well as mixtures of the two, or plain pixel-swapping (like the horizontal/vertical three-pixel line alternations).

So... if you were to take a line of Rule 110's output and work out the reverse, is it trivially possible?  There as an answer to the problem, but there may be more.  And give me half an hour to code it in Perl and I might even look at the problem.  (I won't actually do it in half an hour, but if I feel the urge I may spend some time tonight to try a totally unscientific attempt at looking for an alternate precursor to some randomly chosen line in the sequence...  just won't take the lack of finding one as a rigorous proof that there won't be any, anywhere...)   But if you (<=generic) are indeed intending to implement an "Anti-" Rule 110 to derive the sequence in a reverse direction and know there are going to be non-unique solutions at each level of precursorship, perhaps the true Anti-Rule must take into account more than one level of lookahead (or, perhaps more accurately, 'lookbehind'!) because the other possible N-1 steps may or may not have viable N-2 steps that they can go to, and even if they do, the N-3 steps may not be viable....  At some point there may (should?) be a failure, and perhaps that's part of the complexity of antiRule110 necessary to run the sequence in reverse and generate the timeless sheet in reverse...  (Also, it must start at an arbitrary but valid 110 line, otherwise it'll aready end up without viable precursors.)


But the original point was really that viewing as a (pregenerated) sheet, either forwards as normal or backwards with the AntiRule, gives you the timeless perspective upon a process (simple or complicated) that appears to indicate an arrow of time.  Which may or may not agree with the reality of the generational formulas true direction of reference/succession.  Should a consciousness ever have managed to arise in the stream of bits (c.f. past posts of mine talking about the possibility of GoL structures that 'think' they are conscious, even though to us they're just a logical progression of complex patterns, only with one less dimension to arise in in the first place) it might perceive time's arrow either as per Rule110 or as per the AntiRule (I wouldn't care to say which!) regardless of the possibility that they had arisen within a stream of generated information laid out in the opposite direction!

Fun to consider, but far too philosophical, I think.  Maybe I've explained what I'm thinking, but I bet I've lost you all [edit: with the possible exception of Makbeth, it appears, although I still foresee that my "consciousness is a universal illusion" point could cause consternation in this quarter as well, if not taken with the appropriate pinch of philosophical salt!].  Which is totally my fault for not finding the right combination of words to convey what I'm talking about and meshing with the rest of your philosophies properly.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:10:08 pm by Starver »
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Makbeth

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5432 on: November 02, 2010, 04:04:17 pm »

But my post (at least that part of it) was mostly concerned with how we perceive time, and how our perception of time misleads us into thinking of the future as something that hasn't happened yet.
My only problem with that is that "our perception" is itself merely (to my mind... if you'll excuse me falling (leaping!) into the same trap!) a function of the universe's progression, so there's no other way than for a moment of consciousness to consider 'past' things as in the past and 'future' things as yet to come.  Much as a snooker ball can only be positioned on a table according to collisions that have happened and without consideration for collisions yet to be.  It's a philosophical nitpick which I'm sure can be outpedanted with arguments nobody has yet made me aware of, though.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.  It appears that you're either making a point that I agree with (no being, no matter which way they perceive time, can be aware of events occurring in times of increased entropy, which we know as the future) or you're saying that beings cannot perceive time backwards.  I'll concede that that's probably true, but again, that was a thought experiment and not a suggestion that they exist.
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Diso Faintpuzzles was born in 120.  Although accounts vary it is universally agreed that Diso was chosen by fate as the vanguard of destiny.

In the early spring of 143 Diso began wandering the wilds.

In the early spring of 143 Diso starved to death in the Horn of Striking.

alway

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5433 on: November 02, 2010, 04:30:33 pm »

Stephen Hawking explains it best in A Brief History of Time. We perceive time as single-directional and constantly moving because of the way our brains work. For useful computation to be done, overall entropy must increase; that includes computation done in our brains. If you could somehow think without an increase in entropy (would require being an extra-dimensional being, since it is otherwise impossible), you would indeed see the universe as being a static construct similar to aforementioned GoL sheet of paper.

As for looking backwards in a GoL to predict N-1, no, you cannot. First of all because the game can begin in any configuration. Thus there may never have actually been an N-1 line. Secondly, as mentioned, there are unpredictabilities since any given line could have an infinite possible number of previous setups. This of course assumes Rule 110 is being used, as there are more simplistic rules which can be traced back, some rather easily. For example, some rules result in merely copying one line to the next w/o change.
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5434 on: November 02, 2010, 07:06:47 pm »

For example, some rules result in merely copying one line to the next w/o change.
Ah, but aside from work or school, I can hardly believe that the universe exists on such a rule.

Chaos Magic takes the following view on time: Time is a "Now", a single point, or a dot. There is no previous dot, and there is no next dot, at least not a fixed one. There's just a whole lot of probable-next-dots, as at any of those infinitesimal points there's a limited (but huge) number of things that can happen (on a quantum scale). And vice-versa, the same. Which means that history does not exist, and there's no past, just a whole lot of different pasts that could have led up to this exact configuration of particles in time that is Now. When the next "Now" comes along, there is no more previous now. All possible previous "nows" are possible, with varying levels of probability.

In that way, it's both possible that God created the universe, and that not-a-god created the universe, at the same time. Discussion is over ;)
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5435 on: November 02, 2010, 07:12:58 pm »

If god(s) are beyond our comprehension, god(s) cannot be observed. Therefore, god(s) are in a quantum state, and both exist and don't exist at the same time. Schrödinger's Gods anybody?
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Shade-o

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5436 on: November 02, 2010, 07:34:32 pm »

Is anyone here actually 'traditionally' religious, or have we all moved onto a tangled entropy-quantum-probability mess where the only constant is our inability to perceive the universe?
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5437 on: November 02, 2010, 07:48:02 pm »

I have a better question.  Is ANYONE actually traditionally religious anymore? ;)
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Makbeth

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5438 on: November 02, 2010, 07:48:56 pm »

I certainly hope not.  I really enjoy not being burned alive.

Actually there were some women in a restaurant I was at just last night who were casually spouting off their homophobia, so yes, there are some.  Actually, there are quite a few places in the US where it's definitely not safe to let people find out if your an athiest.  Sometimes even the police will start harrassing you.  Even read one news story where a man was shot repeatedly in the head with a shotgun by his best friend after telling him he was an athiest.

Morals can only come from God indeed.  I sure wish you believers would stop yapping at me about how much better you are.  You're part of a group that pulls this shit.  You're not better.  There is nothing about atheism that encourages people to kill gays or, well, anyone actually.  You might not be as extreme as they are, but I don't see you doing anything about it.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:01:54 pm by Makbeth »
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Diso Faintpuzzles was born in 120.  Although accounts vary it is universally agreed that Diso was chosen by fate as the vanguard of destiny.

In the early spring of 143 Diso began wandering the wilds.

In the early spring of 143 Diso starved to death in the Horn of Striking.

Realmfighter

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5439 on: November 02, 2010, 08:09:27 pm »

Man I hate Ravid Christians. Also Ravid Atheist.

Anything with Ravid before it really.
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5440 on: November 02, 2010, 08:13:03 pm »

The level of sheer hatred some people have against atheists is rather shocking, and that's all I feel like saying on the matter before I lose all hope for my fellow humans again.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Realmfighter

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5441 on: November 02, 2010, 08:15:53 pm »

The level of sheer hatred some people have against anything you can name is rather shocking, and that's all I feel like saying on the matter before I lose all hope for my fellow humans again.
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

ECrownofFire

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5442 on: November 02, 2010, 08:19:23 pm »

That kind of stuff applies to everybody really. Religion is just another excuse for people to do things, not just bad things though. Any kind of Extremist is not fun to be around. Some of them are just so crazy that it's funny though. I'd like to share a link here too.
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Bauglir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5443 on: November 02, 2010, 08:24:58 pm »

Man I hate Ravid Christians. Also Ravid Atheist.

Anything with Ravid before it really.

Now with hyperlinks.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Tellemurius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5444 on: November 02, 2010, 08:34:32 pm »

Man I hate Ravid Christians. Also Ravid Atheist.

Anything with Ravid before it really.

Now with hyperlinks.
gaa their all the same! ok so whats the current scoreboard?
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