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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404118 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4500 on: September 29, 2010, 05:21:28 pm »

He makes a few good points, then takes a few out-of-context quotes, makes up a few others
This is a pretty serious accusation.  Care to provide any basis for it?

For instance: Adam and Eve did die, eventually (my translation does not mention "one day", I just looked up that King James version does mention "the day that"). If they hadn't eaten, they might have lived indefinitely. God did not lie.
This was exactly his point.  Sure, it can sortof be restrospectively interpreted that God told the truth (basically any statement can be "the truth" if you wrangle it hard enough) but how did he expect Adam or Eve, two completely naive people, to grasp this complexity?


The serpent uses half-truths, and lies when he sais they won't die. On the other hand, telling people who have no idea of right and wrong that something is wrong and then expecting them to understand it seems indeed a bit weird.
The serpent says that:
Quote
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The first part of the phrase could easily be interpreted as true (the apple will not lead to your death) while the second part seems 100% correct.

Now, why exactly was Eve meant to reject the snake?  I mean, it'd be a bit more fair if God said "And don't trust serpents, because they will try to trick you"... but she clearly has no concept of lying or temptation.  Which brings us on to another hard question: what is the value of this as a story?  What is the moral lesson?  "Blindly believe whatever's told to you first, rejecting anything else that's said"?  "Knowledge is bad"?

He is like his parents, adhering to one idea only, and rejecting anything that might threaten it, and I find that a pity.
His video on open mindedness takes this view and obliterates it.  Even if you think it has value as a story, you can't claim he rejects it through lack of careful thought about it.

Well, what do you consider evidence? It differs from person to person. For one man, the word of another is enough ("That woman's a witch!" "You're right, let's burn her"), for others they need to personally experience something, others believe in empiricism and logic, others again believe a millennia-old institution, others again are easily swayed by mere charisma, and yet others only believe what they made up themselves.
Anything that genuinely raises the possibility of something being true.

A random allegation, therefore, is not evidence.  It doesn't have to be personally experienced provided the source you get it from is credible (again, by your own judgement).

Random made up stuff is definitely not evidence, by any definition of the word.  If I give you an example: I define dead as "hungry".  Is it therefore legitimate for me to claim I am dead right now?  Can I have myself legally declared dead by the same definition everyone else uses?  If I define being "old enough for a pension" as being over 10... does that allow me to claim a pension?

That was a rhetorical question, by the by.
Nope.  You asked me what I consider evidence, and I have a fairly clearly defined answer to that.
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Micro102

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4501 on: September 29, 2010, 05:22:20 pm »

The problem with this thread is that while everyone is trying to argue with Siquo, Siquo is arguing with an imaginary person with positions no one actually holds.
I'm not arguing, so yeah, I guess you're half right, there.

You are presenting viewpoints differing from those of others and attempting to show why they are valid. Put more succinctly, you're arguing.

EDIT:
I want to clarify, I'm not trying to prove your other arguments wrong with that, it's just a terminological nitpick.

Wouldn't that be a strawman?
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Org

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4502 on: September 29, 2010, 05:25:11 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.

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Bauglir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4503 on: September 29, 2010, 05:26:49 pm »

The problem with this thread is that while everyone is trying to argue with Siquo, Siquo is arguing with an imaginary person with positions no one actually holds.
I'm not arguing, so yeah, I guess you're half right, there.

You are presenting viewpoints differing from those of others and attempting to show why they are valid. Put more succinctly, you're arguing.

EDIT:
I want to clarify, I'm not trying to prove your other arguments wrong with that, it's just a terminological nitpick.

Wouldn't that be a strawman?

Naw, that'd be if he were presenting viewpoints differing from those of others, claimed that others held them, and then tried to show why they're false. What he's doing is presenting his own viewpoints (which differ from those of others) and trying to show why they're true or, at least, logically acceptable. I make no comment on his degree of success.

EDIT: Ampersand is saying he's strawmanning, but I don't wanna get into that.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Virex

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4504 on: September 29, 2010, 05:27:21 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.


Define prove?
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Org

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4505 on: September 29, 2010, 05:29:11 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.


Define prove?
Demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4506 on: September 29, 2010, 05:35:19 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.
Because your IMAGINATION stat isn't high enough to make a dream universe this comple-

Err...

Well, what you are asking is essentially impossible. You could always go with the old "I think, therefore I am.", but that doesn't fully cover it. Once could say that unexpected and bad things happen to you in your life, but everyone has nightmares. I know that I'm real, but there's no way to prove that to you. So, the best we can do is to trust by Occam's Razor that chances are none of us made the universe.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Realmfighter

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4507 on: September 29, 2010, 05:45:56 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.

You are right. This is all your dream. Now, too prove it too the rest of us, find a skyscraper and fly!
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Phmcw

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4508 on: September 29, 2010, 05:52:22 pm »

There is no proof because your statement has been (sort of) designed to avoid any.
A claim that is not provable have no effect on the world and is thus useless.
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Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Leafsnail

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4509 on: September 29, 2010, 05:58:43 pm »

Looking back, I feel like I ought to clarify part of my point - it's not that your views have to be absolute, but if you're correcting someone else over theirs (for instance, in the child smothering case) you must regard your own as more legitimate.
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BigJake

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4510 on: September 29, 2010, 06:02:32 pm »

I have something.

Prove that I am not the single, sentient being and the rest of you are figments of my dream world.


Define prove?
Demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument

Solipsism?  What a pointless exercise when your hypothesis neither makes a single meaningful prediction nor is it falsifiable.

Notwithstanding the normal human foibles (cultural/racial chauvinisms, inaccurate records, general ignorance, etc) we all agree on the universe around us.  We share it.  Grass, green; sky, blue; gravity, 9.81 m/s2; and on and on and on.  It has an incredibly long lived history shared between countless independent entities (stars, galaxies, nebulae, Kimberella, Lucy, etc.) that all agree that the universe exists.  Is it possible that it all popped into existence last tuesday, perfectly set up to look old?  Yep.  Is it possible if the entire universe is in your head, a single night's dream?  Sure.  Is there any difference between them and a normal reality?  Not a bit.  Nada.  There is nothing in that question to test, nothing to prove, no new knowledge to obtain.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:21:47 pm by BigJake »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4511 on: September 29, 2010, 06:10:44 pm »

Looking back, I feel like I ought to clarify part of my point - it's not that your views have to be absolute, but if you're correcting someone else over theirs (for instance, in the child smothering case) you must regard your own as more legitimate.

That's kind of a tautology. If I hold a POV, it's a given that I regard it as superior to other POVs (in whatever way), because otherwise I'd adopt the one I regarded as superior to mine.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4512 on: September 29, 2010, 06:15:45 pm »

It may seem like an extremely obvious point... but Siquo is claiming that "all ideas are equal in worth", a position I believe is fundamentally untenable.
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Shade-o

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4513 on: September 29, 2010, 06:32:24 pm »

If someone were to counter with "Your idea that the idea that all ideas are tenable is untenable is untenable, therefore all ideas are tenable", how long would it take before we get into a causal loop?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4514 on: September 29, 2010, 06:36:55 pm »

That sentence makes no logical sense and flatly contradicts itself, so... forever?
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