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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 410498 times)

Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2265 on: March 15, 2010, 04:57:58 am »

EDIT:
No, agnostic and atheist are on different axes (is that the right term?)
agnosticism refers to knowing, (a)theism to belief or non-belief.
That's my position, and as such, in your supplied quote:
Quote
1.Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2.De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3.Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4.Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5.Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6.De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7.Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.
... I would argue about the terminology of the "Pure Agnostic" term.

Apart form anything else, maybe one can have 100% belief that God exists, and yet also be 100% Agnostic in saying that no proof can ever exist (also 100% personally sure that there is no god of any kind and yet similarly aware of the inability of providing evidence for same).  Though I think that people who edge towards the extremes of the theism/atheism axis probably also inhabit the lower end of the agnosticism measurement.

Anyway, I really shouldn't be necroing articles this far back in the thread without reading the rest to reply, so shutting up for a while.  I hope.
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Huesoo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2266 on: March 15, 2010, 05:43:57 am »

Buddhism is generally regarded as a religion.  They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.) but they accept the supernatural.

Buddhism is generally regarded as a religion.  They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.)

They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.)

They dont believe in consequences? Read up on the subject before you speak.
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Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2267 on: March 15, 2010, 05:47:55 am »

Buddhism is generally regarded as a religion.  They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.) but they accept the supernatural.

Buddhism is generally regarded as a religion.  They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.)

They don't believe in a creator and consequences (like Hell, etc.)

They dont believe in consequences? Read up on the subject before you speak.

iirc, the consequences were being reincarnated as a rat or something.

G-Flex

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2268 on: March 15, 2010, 05:57:48 am »

I feel absolutely no confidence in my knowledge on this matter, and can't be bothered to look anything up, but here's what I think anyway.

It's always been my impression that Buddhism is a rather "positive" religion in the sense that it's more about eventual reward with less fear built in than your typical Western monotheism or what-have-you, and with less emphasis on non-human reincarnation than Hinduism. In other words, it's more about working towards positive consequences over time (and lifetimes) rather than negative ones.
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Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2269 on: March 15, 2010, 06:38:25 am »

I'm pretty sure there was something about cyclical reincarnation in there somewhere and if you succumbed too badly to your cravings and suffering you'd end up reincarnating as something less awesome. I don't think it was intended as punishment per say (since you wouldn't remember your past lives), just consequences.

Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2270 on: March 15, 2010, 09:09:17 am »

Eh, yeah... I was mainly referring to the fact that they don't judge people eternally into damnation like some other religions.  It's more of a temporary punishment.

But that's not the point.  The task was to find a religion who don't believe in a god.  My point is that you don't need to question meaning, purpose, etc. at all.  So you can have an atheist that believes our purpose here is to entertain an alien race as pets... there's not much Science involved in that. (more science fiction :P)  But being an atheist and searching for life's big mysteries are mutually exclusive.  Being one doesn't link you to the other.
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dreiche2

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2271 on: March 15, 2010, 09:25:06 am »

I'm just saying, not only are you arguing about semantics, you're doing it badly.

Seconded.

I'm trying to drag the discussion away from the people who seem to think that Atheism and Science are interchangeable.

But you are not doing a good job. I 100% agree with you on the issue, i.e. that science is not a religion, but you constantly argue about semantics in a detail that is irrelevant to the bigger issue, and, sorry, you're simply wrong in many cases as well.

The full dictionary definition given for religion is totally sufficient to reject the notion that science per se is a religion.

As for Buddhism, like I said in the other thread it's my favourite religion because of this:


Quote from: The Buddha, supposedly
Do not accept anything by mere tradition ... Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures ... Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions ... But when you know for yourselves—these things are moral, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken, conduce to well-being and happiness—then do you live acting accordingly.

Moreover, some aspects of Buddhism are pretty close to my own viewpoint. What exactly Buddhism entails seems not clear, because afaik the guy said some things and then 200 years later they decided to actually write down what he said, but even then they couldn't agree about what exactly that was. Which lead to many different schools of Buddhism. This diversity is of course also inherent to Buddhism because of the aforementioned quote.

As for gods in Buddhism, yes as far as I know many form of Buddhism don't require gods. It's just that people believed in supernatural beings back then and now anyway as part of their world view, but Buddhism itself doesn't rely on gods existing afaik.

Personally, if I take (certain interpretations of) the lack of self in Buddhism as reality, but karma and rebirth as metaphors, and acknowledge the important role of compassion as least arbitrary purpose in life, I pretty much get what is my (life) philosophy and viewpoint on the nature of the self.

So in a sense, if I ever were to found a religion based on, or at least constrained by, science and philosophy (!), it would look pretty close to Buddhism.
 
But that's not the point.  The task was to find a religion who don't believe in a god.  My point is that you don't need to question meaning, purpose, etc. at all.  So you can have an atheist that believes our purpose here is to entertain an alien race as pets... there's not much Science involved in that. (more science fiction :P)  But being an atheist and searching for life's big mysteries are mutually exclusive.  Being one doesn't link you to the other.

Did you really mean mutually exclusive? I'm not sure what you're saying.
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Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2272 on: March 15, 2010, 09:53:44 am »

As I have now got to the end (again), the next most pressing reply I had in mind over the last ten pages worth of stuff is that while some might argue that "the purpose of DNA is to replicate", or similar, I would say that there's no 'purpose' to it at all, merely consequences to an original or intermediate state.  DNA that has gotten itself into the position of being the template for a living creature has successfully navigated its way through the phase-space of all possible DNA lineages up until that point, but there's no more intent to it than there is any intent for any dynamic process.

And no currently extant DNA really has more 'promise' to continue its lineage than any other, intrinsically.  (Although DNA that has mutated to loose its inherent reproducibility requires cloning/cuttings taken/some other method of perpetuating, DNA that maintains reproducibility may easily fall down by not being delivered to/visited-by a suitable mating set of genes or otherwise fulfilling the requirement for parthenogenesis, in the grand scheme of things.)  If one wishes, think how many strands of human DNA inhabit the overwhelming number of cells of the human that are not gametes or gamete-producers.  The DNA in the rest of the body may help form the conveyance and decision-making elements of the breeding-machine, but themselves could be stripped of most of their individual reproductive and multiplicative powers to no overall effect of the machine-as-a-whole.  And no muscle cell ever, individually ever had intention to contract "so as to perform a manoeuvre that would lead to the perpetuation of the body's lineage, never mind the DNA within it, which is (on the whole) receiving molecular signals/prompts and producing molecular answers to problems that lie beyond any degree of 'understanding' that it might have about its cytoplasmic environment or beyond.


In my eyes, the wonder of the universe is not that purposes are aimed at, pursued and attained, but that so many purposeless processes produce such exquisitely patterned coincidental consequences that beget yet still more momentary and purposeless patterns.  And I apologise for any unintentional alliteration you may perceive in that statement.

There are no purposes at all.  Even people follow no 'purpose', and are merely direct products of their current environment, past experience and basic corporeal make-up.  The complex system of neural interactions which 'exhibit' consciousness may, through internal feedback loops, identify intangibles and label them as 'purpose', but is as much an illusion as conscious decision-making is itself (as experimentation has shown).

For similar reasons as ascribing anthropomorphic emotions, intentions, etc to non-human creatures (or even non-living systems) is misleading, ultimately while emotions and intentions and purposes can be named as useful 'shortcuts' and labels when describing the flux of behaviour-controlling processes within a human themselves, they are still abstractions and mere shadows of whatever underlying complexity actually dictates the behaviour that arises.

Extending these abstractions to anything else in the universe (e.g. "the stars outer layers expand outwards in order to equalise the increased pressure from the renewed internal nuclear reactions") has decreasing merit, as it departs from being even a useful shortcut explanation (or, rather, allows suitably susceptible consciousnesses to muddy their or others' understanding of the true nature of the universe) and it is unfortunate enough that I must resort to apparent anthropomorphism of brain functions themselves in order to attempt to convey an understandable analogy of what I actually mean.

But I appreciate that the above is probably a mouthful, and apologise.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 09:55:36 am by Starver »
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2273 on: March 15, 2010, 10:03:58 am »

But that's not the point.  The task was to find a religion who don't believe in a god.  My point is that you don't need to question meaning, purpose, etc. at all.  So you can have an atheist that believes our purpose here is to entertain an alien race as pets... there's not much Science involved in that. (more science fiction :P)  But being an atheist and searching for life's big mysteries are mutually exclusive.  Being one doesn't link you to the other.

Did you really mean mutually exclusive? I'm not sure what you're saying.
Ugh, I need to take today off... I meant they are not mutually inclusive.  I'm going to blame it on the time change... yeah, that's it!
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2274 on: March 15, 2010, 10:46:13 am »

There are no purposes at all.
This belief is what has gotten me depressed, and led me to the belief that there must be a purpose to the whole universe, somewhere, somehow. So I chose to believe in a "god" or "prime mover" to preserve sanity.
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Forumsdwarf

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2275 on: March 15, 2010, 11:59:41 am »

Quote
There are no purposes at all.
Quote
This belief is what has gotten me depressed
Improvise.
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2276 on: March 15, 2010, 12:05:07 pm »

I did, and found God  ;D
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2277 on: March 15, 2010, 12:07:02 pm »

There are no purposes at all.
This belief is what has gotten me depressed, and led me to the belief that there must be a purpose to the whole universe, somewhere, somehow. So I chose to believe in a "god" or "prime mover" to preserve sanity.
I don't understand why anyone would get depressed... if anything, my departure from feeling scripted has made me feel more free and in control of my own life.  It does explain why some of you want to try to figure out how Atheists explain the universe though.  Not everyone cares or needs to know the origins of life or purpose to live a happy, eventful, and rewarding life.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Grakelin

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2278 on: March 15, 2010, 12:08:54 pm »

I'm pretty sure there was something about cyclical reincarnation in there somewhere and if you succumbed too badly to your cravings and suffering you'd end up reincarnating as something less awesome. I don't think it was intended as punishment per say (since you wouldn't remember your past lives), just consequences.

Buddhism has similar beliefs to Hindu, in that if you were a bad person in life, you spend the time between reincarnations in a Hell where everything is either a rampant blizzard of an eternal flame (depending on what you did) for a long period of time (not sure of the exact number, but I remember it was rounded to the power of ten, so a very long while), until you were ready to return.

It takes about five minutes to go to Wikipedia and actually look things up. Please spend more time doing that, and less time trying to weave Socratic cycles with which to strawman the original debate.
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Huesoo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2279 on: March 15, 2010, 01:51:31 pm »

Ahem, no. Where are the citations for the hell inbetween reincarnations? For I am studying Hinduism right now in school and on the topic on reincarnation. First of all, it is not eternal once you release yourself from all material things your achieve Moksha, Moksha is when your Atman (soul) is finally with Brahman.
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