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Author Topic: Face Palm moments you had in Dwarf Fortress  (Read 2211903 times)

Uzu Bash

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9195 on: March 10, 2015, 06:40:41 pm »

Just recently learned why making stone blocks is useful. They weigh a ton less.
...
Been watching the poor dwarfs slaving their butts off slowly carrying regular rocks to my buildings and whatnot across the map until this point...

They also, reputedly (I've not done any ☼science☼ on it) make smoother walls. So that things that aren't legendary at climbing might have a harder time climbing the structures.
I can testify from adventurer experience, they are much more difficult than rough rock. With High Master Climbing I could practice by dropping down a keep's outer walls (rough rock) with rarely a miss, never enough to cause injury. I tried that from the keep's walls (smooth rock,) missed the second catch, then missed all of 8 lvls the rest of the way down. After that I tried them more carefully, but still missed 1/3 rather than 1/10 with rough walls. At that level I still could still climb them at a decent rate, but one miss usually leads to another all the way down.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 06:42:26 pm by Uzu Bash »
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Manivald

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9196 on: March 11, 2015, 01:15:23 am »

In my first fortress, I built the entrance to the caverns directly by the 'highway' of the fortress. A few moments later, a group of gorlaks snuk past the cage traps, and migrated into the fortress. Shortly, they started wrestling everione in sight and because my shit-ass milita just stood there, it all ended in a massive orgy of vomit, teeth and unconcious dwarves, that took a bloody month to clean up.
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Sanctume

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9197 on: March 11, 2015, 10:58:06 am »

Just did a Terrifying Glacier (no Aquifer) embark, 1 Pick + 1 Anvil, No skills, self-challenge.
Managed to dig in to safety from Undead Polar Bear.
Found cavern with water, trees, and lots of ramp extending 8-z.
By Summer, Herbalist got some booze and food. 
A troll is nearby, and managed to somehow get inside despite having a cage set in the 1-tile that surely anything will get trapped.
But the troll kinda just hang out my 1x1 central stairs. I managed to put cage traps surrounding troll, and eventually captured it when it decided to move. Great!

Uh oh, a GCS is nearby in the SE.  I have most of the choke point up the W ramps with cage traps.  I cancelled other cage traps on the far NE of the map edge.

Then I /facepalm.  I noticed I set a cage, not a cage trap on that 1 tile entry to my fortress.
Then I gambled that I can put 2 cage traps (1 on the north tile, and 1 on the south) next to it and can function to capture that choke point.
Looking good, north tile is caged. south tile has mechanism is in progress...
No! GCS smelled prey and moved 8+ tiles closer. 
Oh crap, go Inside (burrow) now!
Too late, GCS scratches Mechanic only but got stunned.
Herbalist flee south, away from the north tile trap!
Web spews all over.
GCS kills Mechanic and Herbalist. At which point, everyone is put in the No Uniform squad.
I managed to kill GCS, with lots of injuries.  Some dwarf is still stuck in the web outside... with corpses.

I save quit at that point. I think these will re-animate soon, including the GCS.  I wonder if undead GCS will still spew webs.

Sanctume

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9198 on: March 11, 2015, 11:02:28 am »

Just recently learned why making stone blocks is useful. They weigh a ton less.
...
Been watching the poor dwarfs slaving their butts off slowly carrying regular rocks to my buildings and whatnot across the map until this point...

They also, reputedly (I've not done any ☼science☼ on it) make smoother walls. So that things that aren't legendary at climbing might have a harder time climbing the structures.

They do.
Natural Walls, carved smoothed = impossible to climb.
Constructed Walls, made from blocks = very hard to climb but not impossible.
Constructed Walls, made from stones or logs = climb-able
Natural Walls, stone or dirt, untouched = climb-able

Detros

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9199 on: March 11, 2015, 12:01:34 pm »

...
I save quit at that point. I think these will re-animate soon, including the GCS.  I wonder if undead GCS will still spew webs.
Undead webs!
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9200 on: March 11, 2015, 01:54:44 pm »

They do.
Natural Walls, carved smoothed = impossible to climb.
Constructed Walls, made from blocks = very hard to climb but not impossible.
Constructed Walls, made from stones or logs = climb-able
Natural Walls, stone or dirt, untouched = climb-able

This system makes no damned sense, but I expect it will eventually be fixed. The difference between natural and constructed stone should go eventually as well. Climbing a vertical wall of not smoothed but very crumbly stone or dirt would be much harder than climbing a typical brick or block wall.
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Walrusking

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9201 on: March 11, 2015, 02:32:53 pm »

A woodcutter having his body mangled after a tree fell on him... 2 minutes after the embark.
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Tiruin

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9202 on: March 11, 2015, 02:49:35 pm »

They do.
Natural Walls, carved smoothed = impossible to climb.
Constructed Walls, made from blocks = very hard to climb but not impossible.
Constructed Walls, made from stones or logs = climb-able
Natural Walls, stone or dirt, untouched = climb-able

This system makes no damned sense, but I expect it will eventually be fixed. The difference between natural and constructed stone should go eventually as well. Climbing a vertical wall of not smoothed but very crumbly stone or dirt would be much harder than climbing a typical brick or block wall.
How does this make no sense? It seems very reasonable to me, once you consider how architecture and natural rock-creation is.
Natural, smoothed walls have little areas to hold or grasp at.
Constructed-block walls have very minor and subtle areas for grasping and vertical scaling.
'Rough' stone walls or logs have spaces for the hands--though subtle in difference to constructed block walls, may still have the differencial gap, very common in times before our modern knowledge...
And natural walls are assumed to not have either an overhang, or a perpendicular slope, with much irregularity in surface texture to aid manual climbing.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9203 on: March 11, 2015, 06:25:56 pm »

It makes no sense because a natural wall can be smooth or rough, and a constructed wall can be more or less smooth depending on how it is mortared together, if it is mortared. There are also the problems of surfaces crumbling, which can make otherwise easy looking climbs horribly dangerous (climbing a mudstone cliff known for landslides is not a good idea).

I agree that smoothed walls are harder to climb, but scaling a stone block and mortar wall may be easier than scaling a horribly sheer and crumbly natural cliff face.
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Ozarck

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9204 on: March 11, 2015, 10:16:43 pm »

Do a Google image search on "boulder wall" and "smooth stone wall" and I think you'll get an idea of the intended difference between using natural stones (i.e. boulders of irregular shape dug out of the ground) verses stone blocks (i.e. stones which have been shaped by tools and dwarven skill to fit together smoothly and seamlessly, mortar or no. Of course, you can cherry pick those images for specific ones that might coincide with your opinion, but the overall trend is: boulder walls have large and simple hand and footholds, whereas smoothed stone has, at best, fingerholds and toeholds.

The idea seems to me to be: "hey lets use these stones and throw together a wall" (perfectly valid for a variety of uses) verses "hey, lets carefully craft this wall to be smooth and to fit together without gaps." Defense minded wall builders have noted the difference for thousands of years.

xana55

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9205 on: March 11, 2015, 10:33:32 pm »

I tried to move a necromancer to the execution chamber... forgot to clean the execution chamber first. Not one of my finer moments.
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Sanctume

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9206 on: March 12, 2015, 09:55:23 am »

A blessing in disguise that my last save and quit won't load.  I do have a manual save when new seasons kick in.
So Day 1 Summer in my Terrifying Glacier, 1-pick + anvil, self-challenge.
Cavern was breached, pastured the 2 wagon animals, some booze and food made.
My earlier facepalm of setting down a cage instead of cage trap is corrected.
Nothing in the caverns according to the u screen.

So, gave 4 of my 7 mechanic to expedite cage traps.  Miner removed ramps to increase traffic to trapped choke points.

Migrants! 3 adults + 1 kid + 1 yak calf.  Undead Yeti on surface is a bit far away, unlocked hatch and let them in. 
Hurray! An idea formed to use yak calf pastured as bait for my cagetraps, outside the fort proper.

Uh oh, Troll (Deceased) in the u screen.  Some time later, GCS is on radar!
Checked Inside burrow, to add my Trader Depot on z-1.
Added Outside burrow to access pastures and yak calf trap some z+3 above my cavern entrance.

GCS is near, but disappeared in radar.  I was following it, but it went out of range.
Then I see battle report, GCS fighting the yak calf!  Burrow Inside only!  Too late, GCS injected venom on the calf.

Sigh, ok, pasture Two-Humped Camel on 1 tile outside cavern hatch, surely to attack GCS into 1-tile path of cage traps.

/facepalm. This time I Follow GCS, and well it's a spider, duh, climbing and moving z+8 above.  Jumping and moving between tree tops and walls.
It can easily skip my ramp choke points on the ground.

Ahh, but it sensed my camel bait.  It actually swung around from the SW to the far east, swam down 3 tiles of 7/7 water onto my NW flank.
Good thing I have a cage traps in those 1 tile choke points, and captured a CGS before Autumn.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9207 on: March 12, 2015, 11:30:11 am »

Do a Google image search on "boulder wall" and "smooth stone wall" and I think you'll get an idea of the intended difference between using natural stones (i.e. boulders of irregular shape dug out of the ground) verses stone blocks (i.e. stones which have been shaped by tools and dwarven skill to fit together smoothly and seamlessly, mortar or no. Of course, you can cherry pick those images for specific ones that might coincide with your opinion, but the overall trend is: boulder walls have large and simple hand and footholds, whereas smoothed stone has, at best, fingerholds and toeholds.

The idea seems to me to be: "hey lets use these stones and throw together a wall" (perfectly valid for a variety of uses) verses "hey, lets carefully craft this wall to be smooth and to fit together without gaps." Defense minded wall builders have noted the difference for thousands of years.

A boulder wall is still constructed. I was referring to natural stone faces which are already there when dwarves arrive. A stone block wall is harder to climb than a boulder wall, but natural stone faces can be smooth or rough.
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Ozarck

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9208 on: March 12, 2015, 10:02:50 pm »

A boulder wall is still constructed. I was referring to natural stone faces which are already there when dwarves arrive. A stone block wall is harder to climb than a boulder wall, but natural stone faces can be smooth or rough.
Fair enough. Though, in the hills from which I come, they (natural stone 'walls') do tend to be pretty rough. Of course, there are plenty of places only a skilled climber would go, too.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Face Palm moments you had
« Reply #9209 on: March 13, 2015, 11:50:02 am »

Fair enough. Though, in the hills from which I come, they (natural stone 'walls') do tend to be pretty rough. Of course, there are plenty of places only a skilled climber would go, too.

El Capitan, for example. Few would say that it was constructed by dwarves.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.
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