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Author Topic: Newbie learning the ropes of fortress building, and looking for suggestions  (Read 1703 times)

Byakugan01

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So I've begun playing dwarf fortress, and already had to abandon one fortress due to a completely botched irrigation project (which, unfortunately, did NOT flood the fortress), and one due to Stupidity involving dwarves, picking up tools, and a Giant Cave Spider (at least the second managed a moment of true badassery by killing the spider with his bare hands while paralyzed!). I'm playing on Dwarf Heaven due to all the interesting features, but I'm having trouble getting the fort going properly. I have some questions about how to properly plan a fortress.
First, in terms of proximity to the entrance where should my first farm plot be?
Second, how far in advance should i plan the layout of the fortress?
Third, how many miners should I bring along to do this-I typically have 3 proficient miners to do the job.
Fourth...and to me this is very important...I hear lava isn't pressurised, but is it safe to tap into it from several levels below the opening of a volcano?
Fifth, what rooms should I build first?
Sorry for all the newbish questions.
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

Elvang

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  • I usually build my farm plot close to where ever I decide my kitchen is going to be.
  • Have a general idea of where things that require more work will go (such as magma forges, projects) to save trouble later.
  • Personally I bring 6 picks and give no mining levels, I let them work their way up from no skill.
  • It is safe in the sense it won't act like a river would, you'll lose a dwarf when breaching the wall unless he is at least Unbelievably Agile.
  • I generally get my farm plots and trade depot built first, followed by workshops and the kitchen. My dwarves will sleep on the ground for the first year fine so long as nothing major happens to upset them.
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Exponent

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1.  I usually build my first farm plot near the entrance, either in some soil, or even outside (where I use an herbalist to gather some outdoor plants, and use the resulting seeds on the farm plot).  I eventually end up removing all traces of the first farm plot, once I have a better fortress up and running that can handle the irrigation requirements.  To remove all traces, I often specifically locate it under a small hill of soil that I can remove completely, so that you wouldn't even know there had been a hill there.  Aesthetics are important to me.

2.  This is a personal preference.  Some people prefer to never plan anything, and allow for a very organic, sometimes chaotic fortress.  Others plan the whole thing out in advance.  I try to do a lot of "skeletal" planning at the beginning, in such a way that I know that it will allow for more specific plans in the future.

3.  I usually only have one or two miners at first.  Three within a few years, if I'm really doing a ton of mining.  But I could survive with one legendary miner throughout a fortress's entire lifetime, if I had to.

4.  Yes, it is safe, as long as you aren't getting pumps involved.  (You will have to deal with fire imps and such, though, whether through military, grates, fortifications, or something.)  If you do use pumps, then the magma can always return to one less than the height of the pump that is applying pressure.

5.  I go for the carpenter (for beds), mason (for doors), mechanic (for traps), wood furnace (to get a charcoal), smelter (to smelt all the bituminous coal and copper ore that I embark with), forge (to make my first axe for the woodcutter), still (for alcohol, of course), and eventually trade depot.  I don't build them in any particular location, usually just haphazardly outside.  They can be rebuilt in their proper locations later.
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zooeyglass

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i'm going to recommend the excellent guides on the wiki, and then also tinypirate's guide for complete newbies, and the video guides as well. a quick search on the forum will show them for you. all excellent resources and cover your questions plus many of the others that stem from them.

edit: video guide by captain_duck. both that and tinypirate's guide are stickied at the top of this section of the forum.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 09:46:20 am by zooeyglass »
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Shoku

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I usually try to make sure the farm area will get mined out before most of the rest of the fortress but you can get by for awhile if you just set someone to gather plants and give them a stockpile where they won't rot.

Lately I've been doing to "spend two days laying the whole thing out" kinds of fortresses but I'm end up grumpy about how the layout looks before it really reaches noble capacity.

I usually bring two miners and three picks to keep it from taking very long to get my fort started (and that's about the right number of backups in case of mistakes on my part.)

You can tap the magma pipe from several levels down without losing a miner as well if you choose a layer that's wider than the one above it. You just channel out the last wall instead of mining it and then there's no risk.
And since magma flows so slow I just make the upper tunnel like five tiles long with stairs down into the delivery tunnel. If you really wanna be sure your miner doesn't get stuck you could do one frame at a time progression to make sure he goes straight to some other task.

The only risk of being pretty slow about getting rooms set up is a tantrum spiral if something else goes wrong so I just make a bee line for my workshop area to get everyone to be productive and then depending on wood availability maybe a storage area.
I wanna get my forges up faster though.
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morikal

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I'm pretty crazy; I tend to design my fortress out on a bunch of notecards (at least, the initial parts of it), and jot down what I'm putting where to avoid conflict. ie: I won't put bedrooms anywhere within 16 squares (including up/down zlevels) of any anticipated fighting. I won't put workshops anywhere near bedrooms, etc.

My current fortress I have divided into 9 35x35 squares (I'll refer to them as quadrants below), with 1 empty square between each, and a core stairwell going through the center of each one (with 4 up stairs and 4 down stairs arranged in a square around the very center square of the 35x35 quadrant).

Anyway, on to your questions:
1) I tend to start my farm in whatever square is nearest to the river/brook/water source. I'll dig 4 down stairs (to start the column of stairs going all the way to the bottom), dig out the soil, and start a farm there, along with temporary stockpiles and buildings (this 35x35 area tends to be big enough for starting out). I'll leave doors around the stair column, since I'll be flooding my farmland later so I can fertilize it. If I didn't have any soil, you would need to start flooding earlier to get damp stone.

Later, I wall off the area with the 4 downstairs in it, and use that as an above-ground farm. Before walling it off, I build my main entrance somewhere else.

2) I like to plan pretty far in advance, but I've had fun with ad-hoc fortresses too. It all depends what you want to do. Sometimes a sprawling, disorganized, crazy, messy fortress is fun. Sometimes a well-planned, organized, uber-fortress is fun.

3) I don't assign any mining skill (it levels fast), but I tend to try to bring at least 2 picks, usually 3. (I rotate my dwarves through mining duty so they all gain attributes from leveling up mining)

4) I figure out where I will put my magma industry (usually in 2 adjacent, exterior quadrants at the lowest workshop level, and run the magma lines under it. You don't need to worry about pressure at all... I dig out the magma lines, smooth and carve fortifications towards the end of the line near the magma, build a bauxite floodgate in the only corridor connecting the magma lines to the core stairwell (the one that runs through each of my quadrants), and then channel through from above. (Note that the magma source is outside any of my quadrants). ie:
xxxxxxxxFSSMMMM
x = mined out area
F = smoothed & carved fortification end of mined out hallway
S = unmined stone
M = magma

To the left of the above, I have whatever magma grid I'll use to power magma industry. Then, one Z-level up, I channel out the S's. Magma flows up to the fortification, and slowly through it. No monsters :)

5) I tend to build farms, trade depot, brewery, carpenter, mason, and craftsdwarf shops. I make crafts to get my wealth up for more immigrants (and to trade for leather and such from caravans, until my butcher industry is up to snuff), use the carpenter for beds, barrels, and bins, and start making some doors and stuff at the mason shop. I don't find a need for a kitchen until later--my dwarves can eat the plump helmets.
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Albedo

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When I read "Losing is fun", thought they were exaggerating.

...I have some questions about how to properly plan a fortress.

There is no single "properly".  Everything depends on your priorities and playstyle - but if maximizing productivity and minimizing wasted time are your concern, then proximity and flow-thru are key.  But almost anything that involves the word "should" comes with qualifiers regarding what you like in a game.  So "should" quickly gets tweaked to your own style (possibly based on the early traumatic scars you suffer in your first game!  ;D )

But there are some solid suggestions for starting.

First, read the Wiki.  It's the newbie's bible, it's your friend.  While you're waiting for something, hit "random page", and then realize you missed what you were waiting for while reading.

The first thing, is think in 3-D.  If two related rooms (two workshops in an industry chain, or workshop/storage, or workshop/end-consumer, like a kitchen dining room) are 8 tiles from door to door, then it's closer to put one of them 7 z-levels up or down. 

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First, in terms of proximity to the entrance where should my first farm plot be?

Outdoor crops? Close.

I dive into sand/soil, so I can often put it right above my entrance.  "Above", because if I can I will build a small wall around it and put in roof-access before year's end with a sculpture garden and include that - unless I have giant eagles, it's all secure.

Yo don't need a huge area, and there's no reason to group them all together.  4 2x3 plots will create a huge surplus for a crew of 20 if you have something the same size for underground and a Proficient Grower (recommended!).

But my outdoor crops go in after my indoor, and to my embarrassment that sometimes that means season two, sadly, since seeds need to be processed out of gathered plants.  You shouldn't starve, don't worry - farm plots are disappointingly small.
 
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Second, how far in advance should i plan the layout of the fortress?

I map out the topography and think about my entrance/defense before pick strikes earth.  But for rooms, I find thinking modularly helps.

I'll start with a long-ish "welcoming" corridor (8-12) to fill with traps, taking an L-turn at my first barracks and a dog-guard chained there.  I know that inside that will be a scramble area for my very first indoor shops (things I want to protect from thieves), and a ramp under my early dining room down to my trade depot - high traffic for anti-theft security.  I like to put foot access to 90% of my fort through that first dining room - small, with lots of doors - so I know any thief will have a hella gauntlet to get past there - they pick locks, so I'm talking hard walls. 

I know my first mason will be central to everything.  My kitchen/dining room/still and indoor farms will be "together", with a food processor area near that.  I know my butcher and tanner will be adjacent to each other, and my leatherworks near that, and hopefully the butcher near the kitchen.  I know I'll want to have a craftshop near those for bones, and another near whatever high-value stone I have.  I know my loom/dye/cloth will be together, but those are low-priority.  A fish processor near a pond ~if~ I go that way.  Select storage beneath everything, 1-4 levels or more, no prob.

Other industry groups, like glass or obsidian making, or wood-burner/smelter/forges are another cluster.  You'll develop your own style.

And don't forget - it's easy to tear down a workshop and build it elsewhere, and put something new where that was.  An early layout is not carved in stone, as it were. 

Within a few seasons I have done enough exploration to know where I'll set up my stone-home, quite possibly wall up the old entrance, and conceivably abandon the sand/soil digs entirely.

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Third, how many miners should I bring along to do this-I typically have 3 proficient miners to do the job.

Depends.  On your starting location, what you expect, and what you're bringing with in the way of equipment, supplies, and other skills. They're all tied together with your playstyle, or the style you're trying for that fortress.

I start with only 1 and maximize craft/art skills, but I dive into loam/soil/sand for the first year, and then carve out stone once I have a feel for the place.  I can get 2-3 legendary miners before end of 1st winter without a problem that way.

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Fourth...and to me this is very important...I hear lava isn't pressurised, but is it safe to tap into it from several levels below the opening of a volcano?

http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Magma

Quote
Fifth, what rooms should I build first?

Again, depends.

You expect immediate combat?

I like to save money by NOT bringing an axe, which means my priorities are a wood-burner/smelter/forge.  I build the first two right outside my chosen entrance, and then stuff a temporary forge inside somewhere.  The wood burner will replace that in the open scramble/entry area when it finds a permanent home, because the wood-burner has nothing I can't lose to a thief.  The forge also gives me a copper chain (I bring about 10 Tetrahedrite, for the copper & silver for practice weapons) for my guard dog (I bring 4 dogs for breeding, train them later - it's fast, and the savings worth the minor effort, at least in sand where a 5x5 workshop is a snap.  Actually, after the very first entry/storage rush, I cut up-staircases in the soil and then level for twice the experience.)

If you have any trees, a carpenter likewise has little of value and can go outside/just inside, for a first table to define a new meeting area, especially if you're digging far from your wagon.  (But a mason can do this as well, and letting your dorfs sleep in the dirt on the first night or three isn't going to drive anyone insane, so long as you get your act together after that.)    And bins - start them, and don't stop.  They can cover a quick front door as well, and a carpenter can do shields if you land in something thick.  But carpenter/mason are also key.

And that's another thing I like to get done asap - enough room to stuff everything inside, away from rot, away from thieves, away from the wildlife. 

Then a meeting room, which will be a meeting room, to keep my dorfs where I want them.

Then a mechanic for traps, once I have some stone around to use (I'm in sand, so sometimes have to wait for the first storage cellars to hit stone).

An early farm industry helps since crops are time-dependent, and a kitchen - cook up those 1-meat barrels and free them up for your still.  I don't have above-ground until I do some Herbalism, which is untrained via a ranger-type - I feed myself from farms, not off the land, and once you have the seeds you don't need more.

I hold off on food-processing until after crafts - if you have high-value stone, a couple months of mugs (combined with throw-aways from the mason and forge) will cover the dwarf and elf caravans nicely.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 01:25:49 pm by Albedo »
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Byakugan01

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Thanks for the advice, and also thanks for pointing out the newbie guide.
This is how I typically start, by the way;
2-3 dwarves proficient in mining (proficiency in weapon smith and armor smith) One may have siege engineering.
1 proficient carpenter and woodcutter
1 dwarf proficient in brewing and cooking
1 dwarf proficient in mechanics and masonry
2 dwarves proficient in growing, one of which is, depending on the map, a proficient herbalist or if I'm worried about the consequences of poking my head outside (read: GCS) may have the appraisal skill to deal with caravans. The other typically could have proficiency in fisherdwarf or trapping/architecture.

Revise: Yeah, there is no proper way to plan a fortress...aside, of course, from not putting the entrance in the middle of a GCS's web (then again, if you expect elves, this could provide excellent entertainment). But thanks for the advice. On another note, is it a good idea to capture known GCS at the start (in which case, should one or more sets of cages be brought) or leave them for later (either way, i plan to keep one untamed for silk if I can find more than two).  I've rethought my fort design so that the entrance will be over the volcano's opening (cue sounds of burning gobbos), but the GCS is *VERY* close to where I want to build it. (At least, the range for its hunting is). Just leave the site alone, or go for it keeping the DF motto in mind? (would also help to know if I can use a dwarf as bait without loosing him). Also, why is it important to bring metal ores and get a smithery going early on? I've mostly been using wood on beds, cages, and stuff for attempts at pumping (failed due to lack of wood). (BTW, trauma came in the third game when i discovered that the forbidden dwarf eaten by the GCS was where the new carpenter went to get tools for the job. Cue death screams of spider, and a paralyzed dwarf who was also my mechanic, if I recall correctly.) And noting the early importance which seems to be attached to smithery, I take it my miners should have different secondary skills? I usually try to keep them mining constantly, and generally leave just one unoccupied grower or the like for hauling completed stuff. Going to go reread the wiki more carefully now, and check up on the guides. Thanks for the help though, I really do appreciate it and would like to hear more of what you think. One question though: How important is it to be right next to the water source?

As a side note, my introduction to DF was Boatmurdered's story (through the DF page on tvtropes), so I fully expect to either loose, turn the map into a bleak wasteland which would make Mordor look like Yellowstone National Park, or both.
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

Albedo

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Heh, yeppers on that.  I abandoned my first before trading (10th of Summer) when I found I had chosen a site with no economic stone, sand, trees, or easy water, and the second before then when I lost the majority of my dorfs to an antman swarm.  Doing is learning.

There are 3 "how to" guides on the wiki.  They are not identical, and I doubt if many players follow them exactly after their first fort, but they do have some advice in common - here they are, in some rough order for me - and reading the "discussion page" behind each wiki page is always enlightening for commentary from the larger community...

http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Your_first_fortress
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Indecisive%27s_illustrated_fortress_mode_tutorial#Unit_Viewing_and_Dwarf_Skills
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/How_to_correctly_start_fortress_mode

Also, to further address question #3...

http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Starting_builds





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Katsuun

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Don't worry, noce you pick up the basics and get yourself off the ground, barring you haven't modded the game on purpose to be harder, DF is hard to lose unless you are actively trying too.
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how would a Fortress based curse work?

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Rocks fall, everyone dies.

Sans context.

Shoku

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My first giant cave spider capture was in a bottomless pit. I had some cage traps up and was thinking I'd be dumping cats on it or something to try and get it into the traps but then a weaver migrant I forgot about ran up to collect some of the web and got himself stuck- and then oddly unstuck fast enough to outrun the spider who fell neatly into the cage.

I didn't actually manage silk farming in that fort u_u

The next fort I filled three coffins and ended up with a dead spider instead :/
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Puck

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Don't worry, noce you pick up the basics and get yourself off the ground, barring you haven't modded the game on purpose to be harder, DF is hard to lose unless you are actively trying too.
Maybe I'm subconsciously sabotaging myself, but I do somewhat wonder, whether we are playing the same game or not  ;D

Katsuun

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Well certain areas can be hard to play on. What do you embark on and with?
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how would a Fortress based curse work?

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Rocks fall, everyone dies.

Sans context.

azrael4h

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    • My Dwarf Fortress-centric You Tube videos, part of my nominally vintage gaming channel.

First, in terms of proximity to the entrance where should my first farm plot be?
While it depends on where you've embarked and such, I like to keep farms together, and close to the food stockpiles. Which, in turn, are close to the kitchens and stills, and are also close to the dining hall.

My current fort, which is just a boredom-run while waiting on the new version, is above ground, with all farms in the south. Eventually, the SE corner will be a massive dining hall, with stockpiles set into the hillside to the south. I'm focusing in on building the palisade first.

Second, how far in advance should i plan the layout of the fortress?
I never plan much out. I have specific things I want to do, but those are never integral to the fortress' operation, usually. I am planning on a skyroad in the current fort, but it's as a supplement to the main ground roads.

Third, how many miners should I bring along to do this-I typically have 3 proficient miners to do the job.
I bring 2. If I forsee a need for rapid digging, I'll bring extra picks and everyone will dig out the initial shelter. I usually do this in harsher environments.

Fourth...and to me this is very important...I hear lava isn't pressurised, but is it safe to tap into it from several levels below the opening of a volcano?
Beats me.

Fifth, what rooms should I build first?
What rooms do you need first? I always start with some general stockpiles, just to get things indoors. Beyond that, I build as I have a need.
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darksergio

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since I play whit the orcs mod my forstress arent not long lived they just die when a powerfull enought force come and kill everybody or when I release the doomdys device
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Clear skies with a chance of FLAMIN' RAIN!
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