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Yes.

131 (51.2%)

No.

96 (37.5%)

I don't view either gender as having facial hair.

2 (0.8%)

What the hell is a dwarve?

11 (4.3%)

I think Toady said something about this one time, and I'm too spineless to make a wrong guess that might contradict DF canon.

16 (6.3%)

Total Members Voted: 256

[Duke 2.0]

 I don't think any of us support beardless females because we find it sexy. At least I don't. I can just imagine it more easily without it being awkward.

[LegoLord]

 I don't think any of us support beardless females because we find it sexy. At least I don't. I can just imagine it more easily without it being awkward.

Other people clearly stated that their reason were exactly what you just said they weren't.

[Duke 2.0]

 I don't think any of us support beardless females because we find it sexy. At least I don't. I can just imagine it more easily without it being awkward.

Other people clearly stated that their reason were exactly what you just said they weren't.

Then I really need to stop skimming over posts.

[Artyr]

No, I don't think they should have beards because humans don't. From an evolutionary standpoint, assuming dwarves share a common ancestor with humans...

Um... they all just appear out of nowhere in year 1.

No, they evolved thousands of years ago, along with humans, elves, and goblins. At least, that's my theory. World generation only concerns the beginning of history while prehistory is not explored as it's not required for gameplay.

Why does everyone want dwarves to have absolutely no sexual dimorphism? What is the purpose of that? It only makes it harder for them to choose mates, thus hampering their survival. The differences between human genders evolved for a reason, and I see that as easily transfering over to dwarves.

No, I don't think they should have beards because humans don't. From an evolutionary standpoint...

First came short, hairy apes.  Then came slightly less hairy, short, dwarves.  Then came humans, taller and with non-hairy females.  Then came elves, which never have much hair other than what's on top of their heads.

The Artyr's Argument has been struck down.

...Evolution doesn't work that way. There's isn't one direct line from primates to human, and neither would there be for dwarves or elves. The fact that there are humans that are born as dwarves as well as groups of shorter humans known as pygmies leads me to bleieve that they derived from homo sapiens. I would imagine then that they would find the entrances of deep caves where they could live, growing shorter as the caves grew smaller. They then developed a culture that took advantage of underground flora and fauna but kept traits of homo sapiens that helped them when they lived outdoors, such as relative hairlessness compared to other primates, etc. This is why they can develope cave adaptation, because they weren't adapted completely biologically to living underground before.

Also, if dwarves are the closest descendants from primates then they probably wouldn't have beards, as primates do not. There's also a reason why there aren't elves today if that were true.

unimaginative short drunkard humans

I guess that's where the perspective really differs.  I don't see dwarves as 'human' at all.  They're dwarves, with dwarven traits, dwarven minds, and dwarven looks.

I'll probably wind up modding them even more myself.  Give women beards, then all dwarves grey/blue skin or something, and stones in their organs.  And make elves hollow like birds.

I doubt dwarves would devolop so well to living underground. My theory is that they were derived from either homo sapiens or homo rhodesiensis, giving them mostly human characteristics but with enough time to evolve a few adaptations to living underground. Cave adaptation is derived from living above ground, which all other species of homo did. If dwarves had developed grey skin, lacking any UV protection, then it would stand that they would be born with cave adaptation and would instead have to develop sun adaptation in order to work outside, as their eyes would be adapted to seeing in the dark.

[Theoclymenus]

Erm... your argument is all about evolution but there is no evidence that there is any.

I really hate to use the example because stereotyping = bad but, in LOTR there wasn't evolution. The three races were just created. Sure, I am glossing over details here but it is only to get a point across.

Now, DF isn't LOTR. I know that and I hope everyone here knows that. When there is no evidence for something, you can't just assume that it does or doesn't happen. You have to know that anything could be the case.

In DF, Armok could have simply created the gods and the five (?) races on a whim to see how they interact in this setting. There is no need to think about evolution. Sure, he could have used it but there is no evidence either way.

Plus, I feel Armok would probably not want to wait for something to evolve. HE WANTS BLOOD NOW!!!

[LegoLord]

No, I don't think they should have beards because humans don't. From an evolutionary standpoint...

First came short, hairy apes.  Then came slightly less hairy, short, dwarves.  Then came humans, taller and with non-hairy females.  Then came elves, which never have much hair other than what's on top of their heads.

The Artyr's Argument has been struck down.

...Evolution doesn't work that way. There's isn't one direct line from primates to human, and neither would there be for dwarves or elves. The fact that there are humans that are born as dwarves as well as groups of shorter humans known as pygmies leads me to bleieve that they derived from homo sapiens. I would imagine then that they would find the entrances of deep caves where they could live, growing shorter as the caves grew smaller. They then developed a culture that took advantage of underground flora and fauna but kept traits of homo sapiens that helped them when they lived outdoors, such as relative hairlessness compared to other primates, etc. This is why they can develope cave adaptation, because they weren't adapted completely biologically to living underground before.

Also, if dwarves are the closest descendants from primates then they probably wouldn't have beards, as primates do not. There's also a reason why there aren't elves today if that were true.

Did I say an ape just suddenly gave birth to a dwarf?  No, I don't believe I did.  Anyone who really knows what I am talking about should be able to infer that there would be stuff in between.  But I can't say what because we don't know.  I am one of few people that seem to really, fully understand evolution.  But I've got to put it in a way those who don't will understand.  And the cave adaptation argument makes no sense.  If anything, that means that they are in a state between biological acceptance and denial of sun, which could be going either way (into/out of the ground).  And apes do have beards, they have hair over just about their entire bodies.  The hair of your body is all just regressive evolution of hair;  we have lost a biological adaptation with little benefit.

DeKaFu also brought up another good argument for dwarf women having beards:  all female humanoids wind up being designed to look attractive to humans, which is, frankly, sexist.  Not to mention speciest.  Why does the human shape have to be the look?

[Pilsu]

You're Armok, as evidenced by the lack of such a deity in the game itself, no a sphere for blood and the playerbase's bloodlust. Technically you're waiting for the game to evolve right now 


Dwarves' reliance on alcohol is hard to justify when taking an evolutionary stance on the game. It's far more likely all the races are engineered slave races. Elves live forever but are somewhat frail so they probably came first. Dwarves and humans were stronger but were designed with weaknesses such as limited lifespan and alcohol dependency. Something went wrong along the way and the world has few powers left beyond them. Only a handful of dragons and titans remain, both of which seem to be interested in regaining a following among the lesser races by pretending to be gods. Whether either of those races are the precursors is dubious. Whatever happened, it was a long time ago since no one remembers it anymore

[LegoLord]

Oh, dwarves dependence on alcohol can easily be explained even if dwarves came first (assuming creation by evolution)

Imagine the evolutionary path of dwarves as a fork in a road.  Upon reaching it, some went to the left, some went to the right.  The ones on the left discovered alcohol, and eventually, over generations, became dependent on it.  The ones on the right fork grew taller (again, over generations), the females lost their facial hair, and did not become alcohol dependent.  The ones on the left are dwarves as we know them, the ones on the right became humans. 

[Nesoo]

Beards, yes. I'm not sure why, I guess I always have.

For those who think that dwarven women can't be sexy with beards, I really think it's just because you're not used to it. After watching the first season of Carnivāle I barely even noticed in the second season that Lila -- the bearded woman -- has one. Granted, her beard is much sparser than what I imagine dwarven women have.

[Artyr]

Erm... your argument is all about evolution but there is no evidence that there is any.

I really hate to use the example because stereotyping = bad but, in LOTR there wasn't evolution. The three races were just created. Sure, I am glossing over details here but it is only to get a point across.

There's no evidence because it's a fictional world and we can't exactly go and excavate some fossil or artifact evidence. Man didn't start studying this stuff until Darwin, let alone in the middle ages.

I haven't read it, so I couldn't say. Though I'm guessing that's what their cultures said, as most cultures on Earth have a creation myth involving "just being created".

Did I say an ape just suddenly gave birth to a dwarf?  No, I don't believe I did.  Anyone who really knows what I am talking about should be able to infer that there would be stuff in between.  But I can't say what because we don't know.  I am one of few people that seem to really, fully understand evolution.  But I've got to put it in a way those who don't will understand.  And the cave adaptation argument makes no sense.  If anything, that means that they are in a state between biological acceptance and denial of sun, which could be going either way (into/out of the ground).  And apes do have beards, they have hair over just about their entire bodies.  The hair of your body is all just regressive evolution of hair;  we have lost a biological adaptation with little benefit.

DeKaFu also brought up another good argument for dwarf women having beards:  all female humanoids wind up being designed to look attractive to humans, which is, frankly, sexist.  Not to mention speciest.  Why does the human shape have to be the look?

Fully understand evolution? I have yet to see one example of this fact. All I see are two simplified explanations without any further analysis to back them up. You should not have to simplify it, especially to me. If people don't understand it then that's too bad for them; they could, and should, learn something from it. I understand how it works, now please kindly give me the most detailed explanation you can muster.

I'm guessing your rebuttal for my cave adaptation implies that dwarves could have evolved from underground and slowly made their way toward the outside. To this I ask you if you've ever seen a primate living underground. There are but a handful of creatures adapted to surviving completely underground. There simply isn't enough food for a creature that needs a human sized brain (which dwarves have) to survive.

Apes have only a shadow of the beard of a man (or dwarf). They don't grow mustaches either. Also, we didn't lose an adaptation with little benefit; most land mammals have it. It just didn't help us when we started walking upright, as well as using our sweat glands. There are also arguments about it helping us swim, but that's not important.

One look in the raws will show you that:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:DWARF]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
[CREATURE:HUMAN]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
Humanoid.  Human-like. They don't have to be completely attractive to humans, but bearded females is just not human. And by extension, not dwarf.

As for their acoholic dependancies, I believe that it's mostly cultural. With the invention of alcohol the dwarves started drinking it almost exclusively because of its sterility combined with its flavor and mood effects. After thousands of years drinking it their bodies adapted to it. Not much mind you, the only bad thing that happens from alcohol deficiency is slower working and some unhappy thoughts.

[inaluct]

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:DWARF]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
[CREATURE:HUMAN]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
Humanoid.  Human-like. They don't have to be completely attractive to humans, but bearded females is just not human. And by extension, not dwarf.

I don't know which logical fallacy you're falling into with that one, but it's something. So suddenly, dwarves cannot have any traits that humans don't have?

[Fenrir]

Would you quit with the walls of text about evolution? This isn't some scientific study; this is about personal preference.

_{I personally think that evolution is a bunch of malarky, but that's completely another flame war.}

[Dragooble]

Would you quit with the walls of text about evolution? This isn't some scientific study; this is about personal preference.

_{I personally think that evolution is a bunch of malarky, but that's completely another flame war.}

sir! approaching wall of text! brace for impact!
anyway on topic.

Fully understand evolution? I have yet to see one example of this fact. All I see are two simplified explanations without any further analysis to back them up. You should not have to simplify it, especially to me. If people don't understand it then that's too bad for them; they could, and should, learn something from it. I understand how it works, now please kindly give me the most detailed explanation you can muster.

hes not trying to simplify it for you. and what do you mean thats too bad for the people who dont know about it? shouldnt they be able to understand his argument?

Humanoid.  Human-like. They don't have to be completely attractive to humans, but bearded females is just not human. And by extension, not dwarf.

whats not dwarf about it? how do we know whats dwarf and whats not?

[Aqizzar]

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:DWARF]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
[CREATURE:HUMAN]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
Humanoid.  Human-like. They don't have to be completely attractive to humans, but bearded females is just not human. And by extension, not dwarf.

Beak Dog raws

Code: [Select]

[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:MOUTH]
And according to Toady, they're velociraptors.  Similar or identical raw structure only means they follow the same basic bodyplan.  It confers or denies no other traits.

[Old-Man-Gator]

Mechanics, Canon and In Depth thread mining aside..

If they didn't have beards to soak up dwarven whiskey, they wouldn't burn nearly so well. So I vote for bearded. Given that dwarven females burn just as well as dwarven males.

Also, a working dwarven society is fueled by alchohol, beer coloured goggles anyone?