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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3634461 times)

Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14175 on: March 15, 2010, 11:10:12 am »

Yes.  The building raws that Toady posted use multiple build items.

You seem to have linked to the wrong page, but I'll take your word for it.

It's midway through in a spoiler tag.  Didn't figure you'd need it quoted directly.

These aren't cougar- Oh! I see!

What is that [WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY] tag about?
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Willfor

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14176 on: March 15, 2010, 11:12:35 am »

In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards?

The hormones linked to beard development in males are not as present in females in general. At least, that's what I remember it being.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14177 on: March 15, 2010, 11:13:55 am »

Yes.  The building raws that Toady posted use multiple build items.

You seem to have linked to the wrong page, but I'll take your word for it.

It's midway through in a spoiler tag.  Didn't figure you'd need it quoted directly.

These aren't cougar- Oh! I see!

What is that [WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY] tag about?


Maybe linked to economic stone?
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14178 on: March 15, 2010, 11:14:42 am »

D&D and WoW hardly count, as they're largely LotR ripoffs anyway, so any instances in which D&D or WoW differ from LotR can simply be considered errors on the parts of TSR or Blizzard respectively.
I'm not sure I agree with this logic. D&D and Warcraft are both extremely derivative, but that doesn't mean that differences from their inspiration can be dismissed as errors. They have both, via the distillation and transformation of various other works, left their own distinct mark upon the fantasy genre. Hopefully DF will leave it's own mark as well, and if part of that mark is beardless female dwarves, so be it.
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Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14179 on: March 15, 2010, 11:16:06 am »

Hmm... I wonder if the genetics will ever be civ influenced (one mostly dark skinned, one mostly fair skinned, on much taller on average...).

If so, I think bearded female dwarves existing but being more or less common in some civs would be a reasonable compromise.

But the genetics probably isnt that complicated yet.
With some overhaul you could make that sort of happen, though without as strong a tendency in the civs.

i can't decide on whether i would rather have dwarfettes bearded or no...
DnD they are not, LotR they are...

if female beards are toggleable, well, i have no idea what to do.

In WoW they aren't..... so thats 2 against one.

D&D and WoW hardly count, as they're largely LotR ripoffs anyway, so any instances in which D&D or WoW differ from LotR can simply be considered errors on the parts of TSR or Blizzard respectively.

As for LotR itself, I don't think there's anything in the main text discussing female beards, or even mentioning female dwarves at all--the only dwarves that even make an appearance are Gimli and (briefly) Gloin. Female dwarves are mentioned in The Hobbit (Fili and Kili are sons of Thorin's sister, I think), but that's it. However: the extensive appendices to LotR do state, if I remember correctly, that female dwarves are visually indistinguishable from male dwarves to the extent that most of the aboveworld races don't even realize that there are female dwarves, so that could certainly be read as implying beards.

In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards? My guess for males is that a thick full beard is a show of healthiness and excess resources (protein), much like a lion's mane or a peacock's fan, although in all three of these cases I'm not entirely certain why females don't have corresponding structures.
I vaguely recall some line about Gimli not wanting to talk about female dwarves, as if they were some kind of secret.

Body hair in humans tends to be present among the populations that went out and about in swampy areas. Less skin surface exposed means less mosquito bites and less malaria. In hotter areas the heat problem is bigger as EVERYONE has to deal with that rather than just the people that catch a disease.
Unfortunately a lot of parasites tend to make use of patches of hair like beards so there is the opposing effect of parasite load. As women need to do that whole pregnancy thing low parasite loads are a little bit stronger selective force.

Aside from natural selection there's also sexual selection, which can basically do things that don't make sense. If beards are sexy they can get to be a very big burden in the pure physical sense but still end up helping fitness. In some cases things that are blatant handicaps can spread, such as the peacocks tail, because surviving while carrying something like that around proves the individual is very healthy and good at the whole surviving thing. Sexual selection has had a fairly strong impact on humans (example: natural selection tries to keep the brain as small as possible because it's very energy hungry,) so there have likely been numerous factors at work in our appearance.
In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards?

The hormones linked to beard development in males are not as present in females in general. At least, that's what I remember it being.
Well ya but those hormones don't do anything to the hair growing off the tops of our heads. Why should it impact the hair coming off the lower fronts of our heads?
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Willfor

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14180 on: March 15, 2010, 11:23:46 am »

In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards?

The hormones linked to beard development in males are not as present in females in general. At least, that's what I remember it being.
Well ya but those hormones don't do anything to the hair growing off the tops of our heads. Why should it impact the hair coming off the lower fronts of our heads?
I added the addendum "At least, that's what I remember it being." because I was just repeating what I'd been told it was, and I have no evidence to back up my claim. It's entirely possible that I am dead wrong, so.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14181 on: March 15, 2010, 11:26:05 am »

What is that [WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY] tag about?


Maybe linked to economic stone?
Presumably, yes, filtering out economic stones from the build material list.

D&D and WoW hardly count, as they're largely LotR ripoffs anyway, so any instances in which D&D or WoW differ from LotR can simply be considered errors on the parts of TSR or Blizzard respectively.
That's a bit of a over-simplified view. Not only is LotR not quite as big as an influence on D&D as you make it sound (big, sure, but not rip-off level), but differences between the two are much more likely to be stylistic/branding choices, legal necessities, or other influences. The presence of fire-and-forget magic in D&D when it isn't present in Tolkien is hardly an error (though one could argue about its merits). Anyway, I seem to recall that D&D has wavered about female dwarven beards throughout the editions.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14182 on: March 15, 2010, 11:29:04 am »

What is that [WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY] tag about?

Maybe linked to economic stone?

Yup, it tells the game to exclude economic stone from the build screen, just like workshops etc. already do.
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Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14183 on: March 15, 2010, 11:49:04 am »

In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards?

The hormones linked to beard development in males are not as present in females in general. At least, that's what I remember it being.
Well ya but those hormones don't do anything to the hair growing off the tops of our heads. Why should it impact the hair coming off the lower fronts of our heads?
I added the addendum "At least, that's what I remember it being." because I was just repeating what I'd been told it was, and I have no evidence to back up my claim. It's entirely possible that I am dead wrong, so.
Not what I was getting at at all.

Ya, it's because male hormones make the hair grow there but that's sort of like saying sally got burned because the stove was hot instead of because she was trying to cook breakfast and keep her kids from causing too much havoc at the same time, which is distracting.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 11:51:51 am by Shoku »
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Sphalerite

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14184 on: March 15, 2010, 11:57:00 am »

I have heard that the main reason that male lions have manes and lionesses don't has to do with the fact that male lions regularly have to fight other male lions for control of the pride, and the hair makes it much harder to score a killing bite on the back of the head or neck.  Lionesses don't develop the hair because they don't have to fight.  I have also heard that beards on male humans developed for much the same reason, to protect the vulnerable throat area in a fight.  This would assume that for a long period of time male humans were more likely to get into the kind of fight where the throat would be in danger of being slashed or torn out.  Which does raise a question for Toady:  In the new release, will beards offer any protection to the throat area, or do they only protect the part of the body they're directly attached to?

Personally, I've always envisioned female dwarves with beards, but I get my model of dwarven society from Diskworld more so than elsewhere.
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GRead

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14185 on: March 15, 2010, 11:57:47 am »

In any event if we want any sort of realism the question we should be asking ourselves first is: why DON'T female humans have beards? And why do male humans have beards?

The hormones linked to beard development in males are not as present in females in general. At least, that's what I remember it being.
Well ya but those hormones don't do anything to the hair growing off the tops of our heads. Why should it impact the hair coming off the lower fronts of our heads?

Testosterone is directly related to the growth of facial hair and a significant portion of body hair. Hence men grow beards and women do not. Women with high natural testosterone levels (or who take it as a steroid) will grow more facial and body hair, though it requires a major imbalance for them to grow something you'd call a beard.

Without another explanation I am personally inclined to presume the male beard is incidental. The beard itself is unimportant, and unlikely to be selected for or against. However, high levels of testosterone are also associated with increased muscle development, aggression, and libido, all of which are evolutionarily desirable traits in males.

Conversely, high testosterone is undesireable in females. Aside from being responsible for male sexual characteristics, increased aggression in females is generally a bad idea. The survival prospect of a species whose females regularly get killed in unnecessary fights is fairly grim. This is especially true of a species with a ~nine-month gestation and mostly single births.
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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14186 on: March 15, 2010, 12:05:16 pm »

Couldn't we just take the dwarf beard and modify it a bit and give females a beard that just isn't as full/long/fancy as the males that gets shaved and call it a compromise?  For some reason I always saw dwarf females as being able to grow a short beard, but just keeping it shaven.

...Is that possible?
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14187 on: March 15, 2010, 12:08:21 pm »

If they have really long hair, maybe they could pass it off as sideburns. Not really a beard though.
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Igfig

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14188 on: March 15, 2010, 12:19:57 pm »

Having grown up with D&D, I usually think of female dwarves as not having beards.  However, for DF I make an exception, for the sole reason that all of the graphics sets in the current version use the same (bearded) sprite for both men and women.  It's happened many times that a dwarf I thought of as male turned out to be female, or vice versa.  Now I'm so used to it that I'll probably turn lady-beards on.

Although... Strike the Earth! is starting to sway my opinion back the other way.

Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14189 on: March 15, 2010, 12:27:59 pm »

I'm fairly sure the beards toggle was designed entirely to avoid this argument. How sad that it failed.
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