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Author Topic: Playing without metal except for that kindly provided by Rysith's Retailers.  (Read 1840 times)

Marlowe

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Well, not WITHOUT metal, but I decided to start a Faerie Fort on Phyllite and Schist, meaning not much chance of anything useful out of the earth. It's an Untamed Wilds freezing Taiga with 2-level aquifer (otherwise no water) surrounded by a terrifying tundra, and Rysith's Orcs loaded.

We got through the aquifer by the end of the first spring, and in the process made sure that we could farm on the surface even in a freezing biome, something I was only 95% sure of. Our mining confirmed my worst fears; we have nothing in this area but zinc, meaning nothing useful. Even some tetrahydrite would have made all the difference in the world.

Thanks to not taking an anvil, we had plenty of wood and "soft" craftfey skills (stonecrafting, boneworking, leatherworking) plus a nice set of animals; two breeding pairs of elk, 2  cougars, and two cats. In addition to this we got a mule and a muskox as draft animals. We ate the mule and kept the muskox around until a mate could be provided (this eventually happened, but that's not imporant right now). I'd packed some rhesus marque leather along, so after the necessities of life (and a bloody big perimeter ditch) were provided we settled down to making leather armour, shields, and wooden bows.

On previous games with the Orcs, I'd defended myself earlier on by using a large perimeter ditch (later backed by a fortified wall) with a single drawbridged entrance flanked by fortifications. Outside this channels create a 3-wide entrance corridor which is loaded with weapon traps, and flanking channels are set up to make the orcs approach in a more predictable fashion (making their marksorcs unlikely to approach close enough to fire through).


*=channel
I=wall
#=fortification
x=traps
B=bridge, channel underneath.

                          *I
                          *I
***************#
                         *#
                         *#
   *************#
   xxxx                B
   xxxx                B
   xxxx                B
   *************#
                         *#
                         *#
***************#
                         *I
                         *I
Please excuse wonky lines. Problem here is that in previous games I'd had sharpenable rock and glass to use as trap components, here all I had was wood. I produced lots of spiked wooden balls to fill the traps, not knowing if they'd be effective at all against the big, brawny Orcs. To my surprise they actually wound up doing the job rather nicely, sometimes completely destroying an orc wrestler's body (about 3 weapons to a trap, often with a joker like a couple of (large copper daggers)) but that's not important right now.

 First Orc attack, in the second summer, was beaten off really easily. The orc warband of Stabbers (spears and Pikes)  and wrestlers got split up rather badly by undead wildlife crossing the tundra and reached the gate in dribs and drabs. We had eight champions and elite wrestlers in leather holding a mixture of wooden bows and assorted melee weapons bought from the first caravan (such as a bronze battle-axe), backed up by a trembling mob of miners (all founders) woodcutters drafted to hold the gate. Disappointingly, only the Orc vangard (all but one wrestlers) were bought down by traps and dabbling bowwork before the others called it a day. Our loot consisted of one shield, a pike, and a set of stout chain to melt down.

 The second orc attack of the following autumn was a near-disaster. In fact, it WAS a disaster.

 I hadn't realised just how close my front gate (facing west) was to the edge of the local area, I had a couple of woodcutters and a hauler out working when an Orc stabber group appeared right on top of them and cut them off from the gate. A second mob of markorcs appeared more distantly to the north. I took too long to realise the plight of the woodcutters and by the time I realised I was actually going to have to order a charge, it was too late. We put the stabbers to bloody rout, but their swordmaster leader managed to chase down and kill the woodcutters and my axewielding-wrestler was left wounded in no-man's-land with the markorcs approaching fast.

 My next decision was really stupid. I should note that the axewielder had done very good work the previous season cutting down Skuskoxen that had been harassing my migrants and I didn't want to lose him. I gave the civilians clearance to go outside, in the hope that one of them would recover the wounded soldier first.

 Of course they ignored him and all ran into the teeth of the markorcs to try to...what? I'm still not sure. The Markorcs, B-movie heavies that they are, aren't great shots but they sure are persistent. They can't miss all the time. I have to charge again.

 Of course, half my military are still checking out new ammunition, and in any case they don't have the shield training to take charge into the teeth of  arrow fire in ones and twos. Charging in like this costs me 2 champions, 2 elite wrestlers, and four civilians including a founding mechanic, though we certainly do take down some of the enemy (including that prat of a swordmaster). I desperately order a fall back to the gate and discover I'm now down to 2 bow-wielding champions able-bodied, plus a third seriously wounded who is now fallen in a ditch. It looks like make or break time.

 To my amazement, one of my surviving champions, against orders, decides he'll take his stand standing in the middle of the gate uncovered by the fortifications. He's totally in the open and exchanging fire with an entire warband, pine arrows against iron. He's had minimal bow training and his accuracy is not impressive, but something about the sight of him standing there really bothers the remaining marksorcs, and the siege is broken. They never hit him. Definitely a Fey moment.

 In total here, we lost 2 champions (plus one badly wounded), 3 elite wrestlers, and 7 civilians. A hard loss, for a fort that only had 38 population to start with.

 Orc losses were a swordmaster, 8 marksorcs, 5 stabbers, and about 15 wrestlers. Not enough. The close area edge made it too easy for them to escape. We captured a number of decent bows and quivers and some iron arrows, some shields and spears, a scimitar and the usual rubbish.

 Mentioning the arrows brings up the REAL problem with playing without useful ore in your local area, it's not trading and melting, scrimping and saving, to get decent armour on your military. That's actually kind of fun. It's NICE to have every -iron chain mail- represent a real achievement rather than a  result of basic management. Similarly, it's not having to rely on trade and capture for your weapons (except bows), that too, is rather fun and lets you fool around with things you normally wouldn't bother with.

 The real problem is ammunition. You have to micromanage your ammo stocks quite carefully to cut a balance between having your bow-wielders shoot off all your ammunition in practice and leaving enough to let them train at all. A lot of the iron obtained from melting down the orc equipment got used to make more arrows, just to give me a safety net. Leading to the question, why is the same "military metals" criteria imposed on ammunition as on anything else? I mean, I can see why swords or armour shouldn't be made out of zinc, but why not arrows? Arrows only have to work once.

 After the battle, I carried out a drastic cutdown on the civilian sector and drafted a whole bunch of people. This led to people training with the captured scimitar, with an (-iron long sword-) I'd got off the humans, with a copper morning star, with a couple of (iron spears), you get the idea. The next bunch of migrants in spring got the same treatment.

 To prevent the orcs spawning a short distance to the west and surprising us again, we dug a channel along that local area edge, stopping a fair distance to the north and to the south of our perimeter. Orcs that spawn there in future will have a bit of a walkaround.

 By the time of the next attack (third summer) we had 2 (functional) champions with bows and a degree of bow practice, 8 elite wrestlers (2 bows, 6 assorted melee weapons) and 6 wrestlers (handed bows at the last minute). The bow-champions and the meleeists had chain mail of some description. The attack involved 2 Orc Carver (Axeorc) warbands and 2 Mauler (maceorc) bands.

 One Carver warband got split by the western edge channel, and aside from beating up on some Skelks accomplished nothing, since they couldn't figure out how to advance as a team with the ditch bisecting their path, but the others closed handsomely. My best archers were off duty at the time of the attack, so much of the early part of the action was dominated by the wrestlers-holding-bows, whose slow fire decimated the first mauler warband (one of these guys, an ex-ranger, got titles). Eventually enough orcs turned up to rush the traps. Each trap killed an orc (and bow fire killed more), but the leaders got past. One of these guys was shot by a wrestler, the other two fell in the ditch, where they were shot (by wrestlers). Eventually my guys with actual bow training turned up, and decimated the enemy. My meleeists are constantly trying to get to grips, but I keep reigning them back. Only one gets a kill. They're too frail to risk just yet.

 My copper-morning-star person gets to swap her weapon for an (iron mace). I think that's progress.

 Now we have to replace the ammunition before autumn.


 

 





                           
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Marlowe

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AND the Orcs didn't turn up that season. The dwarves and goblins did.

 The Dwarf caravan got ambushed by a horribly underequipped (something like 4 wrestlers and a swordgoblin) bunch of gobbos south of the fort. They killed the goblins, lost a pack beast, and ran away. Damn dwarves. We only wanted them for the dimple cups. Now we have to melt down the steel toys they left behind.

 While this was happening, three goblin thieves died on our traps. It got quite silly.

 Then the second goblin ambush happened. They got triggered by undead Muskox on the tundra to the north. They lost. We did lose a peasant to the Skuskoxen before I sent some people out to restore order. And put some mace practice in.

 Oh yeah, and now we've hit Galena. Great. Lead, silver, and zinc. How quaint.
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JacobGreyson

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Hey, now. With Silver, you can make metal weapons. Sure, they suck, but it's a damned sight better than having to make do with bone-crossbows and that one steel battleaxe you embarked with. And you have some really guilt-free metal from which to make bins and barrels (Lead!).
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(name here)

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Ouch, that's bad metal wise.

Worst i've gotten is a place with sharpenable rock but no iron or flux.
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Only in Dwarf Fortress would you try to catch a mermaid to butcher her and make trophies out of her bones 

Marlowe

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Interestingly, the Orc siege turned up at the beginning of winter, which shouldn't happen. There were two swordsorc (forget the correct name) warbands, a mauler unit and a marksorc unit. Evidently, the goblin ambushes last season pre-emptied the orcish siege then, so they got shunted back to the following season. Interesting.

One of the swordsorc units, again, got stymied by the western ditch. It's not that they can't get through, it's just they're too stupid to. A diagram.

1,O.
   O.
   O.
   O.
   O.     Orcs spawn behind the ditch.


2,  .
     .
  O .
  O . O
   OO  Orcs move around the end of the ditch.

But then they get stuck, because the Orcs still behind the ditch want to head in the same direction as those that have already gone around. They can't so they just get all confused. At the same time they're programmed to stick together so a whole group just sticks there until the siege is broken and they all run.

Anyway, the attack showed a weakness in my defenses....

        O                       #
                                 #
                                 #

 
                                 #A
                                 #B
                                 #
The Orc can shoot Faerie at point A, and possibly hit those at B as well (accidentally), without getting a fortification check penalty. This cost us 4 wounded soldiers, including one who is a yellow spinal case and is therefore a permanent invalid.

In future we'll redesign the gate as so:
                                  #
                                  #
                                  #
                                  ###SSS

Outside.                                          Inside.

                                  ###SSS
                                  #
                                  #
The "S" marks will be stairways up to a little watchtower where the non-archers can hang out until needed. That way they shouldn't become targets.

This would probably have been a cheaper battle had I not forgotten to unforbid a lot of our bone ammunition stocks. Our bowfire was really lacking compared to previous sieges.


                                   
   
 
   
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Savok

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Now that's tough. Masterpiece weapons 3/8 as strong as masterpiece steel.

You could mod the metal files to make arrows out of any metal, although you might consider that cheating. Download this text file and put it in your /raw/objects folder, replacing the file of the same name. This assumes that you are using vanilla metals and don't know how to add in the [AMMO] tags yourself, which I really don't know.
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So sayeth the Wiki Loremaster!

Marlowe

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Now that's tough. Masterpiece weapons 3/8 as strong as masterpiece steel.

You could mod the metal files to make arrows out of any metal, although you might consider that cheating. Download this text file and put it in your /raw/objects folder, replacing the file of the same name. This assumes that you are using vanilla metals and don't know how to add in the [AMMO] tags yourself, which I really don't know.

Oh, I know how to tag the tags all right, I don't want to change the rules in the middle of the game.

I've got enough captured Iron weapons now not to bother about making silver ones, the silver can make more ammo.

Just strikes me as odd that ammo is subject to the same metal performance requirement as armour and real weapons. Ammo is meant to be expendable. Lead arrows would strike me as wrong, but what would be wrong with zinc or nickle?
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MuonDecay

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I don't think zinc can actually be forged into anything at all, at least not by itself.

It's flammable.
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Marlowe

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That would probably explain it's ubiquitous usage in Parisian bistro counters then. Wait, no it doesn't. If it's flammable, how can you smelt it into brass? Wait, if flammability is an issue, where do all the aluminium goblets come from?

According to the matglosses, it's melting point is on the low end but still higher than tin, bismuthinite, lead, and all the pewters.
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MuonDecay

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That would probably explain it's ubiquitous usage in Parisian bistro counters then. Wait, no it doesn't. If it's flammable, how can you smelt it into brass? Wait, if flammability is an issue, where do all the aluminium goblets come from?

According to the matglosses, it's melting point is on the low end but still higher than tin, bismuthinite, lead, and all the pewters.

That was unnecessarily confrontational  :-X

However, zinc's use is in brass as a lot like how aluminum resists corrosion. The oxide of zinc forms a protective layer which prevents further, deeper oxidation.

I'd think that the stuff would wind up absolutely covered in flaky, brittle slag though... if you tried to work with the isolated metal... which wasn't first refined into pure metal until, I think, the 16th century.

I could be wrong. I often am.
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CobaltKobold

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flammable...aluminum
Wait, you want to make thermite in DF?

"This is a superiorly-prepared Dwarven Explosive Biscuit. It is made of superiorly-minced aluminum and superiorly-minced hematite."

edit: fixed thermite recipe
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 10:53:39 am by CobaltKobold »
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Neither whole, nor broken. Interpreting this post is left as an exercise for the reader.
OCEANCLIFF seeding, high z-var(40d)
Tilesets

Marlowe

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That would probably explain it's ubiquitous usage in Parisian bistro counters then. Wait, no it doesn't. If it's flammable, how can you smelt it into brass? Wait, if flammability is an issue, where do all the aluminium goblets come from?

According to the matglosses, it's melting point is on the low end but still higher than tin, bismuthinite, lead, and all the pewters.

That was unnecessarily confrontational  :-X

However, zinc's use is in brass as a lot like how aluminum resists corrosion. The oxide of zinc forms a protective layer which prevents further, deeper oxidation.

I'd think that the stuff would wind up absolutely covered in flaky, brittle slag though... if you tried to work with the isolated metal... which wasn't first refined into pure metal until, I think, the 16th century.

I could be wrong. I often am.

Maybe it was unnecessary. But here's the problem. Regardless of the real world nature of zinc, it functions in the game like any other craft metal. Arguing that we shouldn't be able to make ammo out of it because you shouldn't be able to make ANYTHING out of it ignores the game reality, which is that it CAN be forged into anything non-military you want. While everything you said might be exactly correct the real world, it's not really relevant to dwarf fortress reality and is at best a total non-sequitur.

Secondly, zinc (specifically) is not the issue. The question is whether an expendable asset like ammunition should be subject to the same military metal limits as more lasting assets like armour and weapons.
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