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For !

Against !

[praguepride]

In general, I'm against it, only because I doubt the AI running them would keep them from acting like lemmings, right now.

If the problem could be solved so that it was a 1 in say 10,000 times occurrance, and based on something other than a computer hiccup, then I'd be fine with it.

I thought this quote applicable because I agree with it 100%, but in regards to tunneling creatures actually tunnelling. Magma breaches, disrupting mechanisms, killing FPS...pass!

[ThtblovesDF]

Tunnlers - Yes, please Natural ones as well so I can overtake there stuff. Gigant mole anyone.

Following restraints however;

They wont dig into any wet/hot ground (magma/water)
They are unable to dig though smoothed stone/ walls.

[SirHoneyBadger]

In general, I'm against it, only because I doubt the AI running them would keep them from acting like lemmings, right now.

If the problem could be solved so that it was a 1 in say 10,000 times occurrance, and based on something other than a computer hiccup, then I'd be fine with it.

I thought this quote applicable because I agree with it 100%, but in regards to tunneling creatures actually tunnelling. Magma breaches, disrupting mechanisms, killing FPS...pass!

That's fine, and I don't mind you using it, but I'd like to note that it is *not* in context. It wasn't even said within this thread. I'm 100% for tunnelers.

I will remain 100% for tunnelers.

[praguepride]

I'm 100% for tunnelers AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ACTUALLY TUNNEL.

Maybe make them "swim/fly" through rock. That's fine too. But having crappy AI flood the map with magma/water because it doesn't pathfind properly is not Fun.

Having my FPS killed because my map just happens to have to track cave-ins because the tunneler double-backed on itself is not Fun.

Having hours and hours of careful planning destroyed by an unstoppable tunneler is not Fun.

Having all my ore disappear because a tunneler decided to randomly follow the iron/silver/gold/adamantine vein is definitly NOT Fun

Having a Tunneler breach HFS within 5secs of me embarking is not Fun.

[Tormy]

They are unable to dig though smoothed stone/ walls.

That makes no sense to be honest, but we've talked about this already. Like I've said, what we will need is: raw options, so that all players will be able to "fine tune" the tunnelers. [Not to mention that almost all users have different ideas about the tunnelers in regard to what should they be able to do and what not...that's why we will need a decent & raw controllable tunneling system.]

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'd personally like to see the number of vanilla animals/monsters who can tunnel through stone be severely limited. I think the rarity of such beasts (in both frequency and numbers) would help allieviate a lot of concerns.

Soil tunneling could be a lot more common, ofcourse, and among the Civs the ability to tunnel just makes sense. Nothing to be done about that, without destroying a lot of the realism going on in the game.

[Silverionmox]

But having crappy AI flood the map with magma/water because it doesn't pathfind properly is not Fun.

They ought to avoid water or magma, since flooding their tunnel will make it useless.

Having my FPS killed because my map just happens to have to track cave-ins because the tunneler double-backed on itself is not Fun.

Mark it restricted traffic, until a more automated pathfinding system is in place.

Having hours and hours of careful planning destroyed by an unstoppable tunneler is not Fun.

Tunneling should be sufficiently slow, so that you can send a squad to dispatch them if you deem that important enough. Dwarves might also have keen awareness of the vibrations of digging.

Having all my ore disappear because a tunneler decided to randomly follow the iron/silver/gold/adamantine vein is definitly NOT Fun

Conservation of mass should be respected, indeed.

Having a Tunneler breach HFS within 5secs of me embarking is not Fun.

That's an acceptable risk, I think.

[Musluk]

Losing is Fun, but only if you have a chance to change the outcome (for better, or for worse).

I'm against tunnelers if they'll be ICBM's against dwarven forts, with no way to finetune their digging, or preventing it outright. Both within the game and without. It should be, by default, rare in wilderness.

I'm for tunneling if some races/etc can traverse through the layers without digging, soil being the most prominent feature. Sandworms, etc.

I'd rather see some destroyable buildings and goblin engineers building bridges over the moats or ramps next to walls to pour in than tunnelers, to be honest.

[praguepride]

Exactly. Monsters don't need to be able to dig to breach a dwarf fort. They just need to be able to break down walls.

Maybe allow them to dig if there's only a 1 square space between your fort and the outside world (thus making farms built under soil a possible breach point.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Soil, I think, should be traversible even by the unskilled, atleast when the amount of soil is small and shallow (like 1 square). Everything from a normal dog, on, could have *some* ability to dig through soil. That would likely have a very strong enforcing effect on strategy--you just shouldn't rely on simple soil being an impenetrable bulwark against attack.

There are *things* which can be *done* to mitigate that weakness. Having both the ability, and a good reason, to do those things, would only make the game more interesting. 

There should also be some consideration for how many Z-levels are stacked above the point at which you/your enemies are digging. Also, how many levels down are being dug. The more there are, the more difficult/dangerous it could be to dig there, especially rapidly and/or unprofessionally, and in the middle of a combat situation.

Tunneling through solid rock-especially hard rock-isn't nearly the same thing as digging through soil. It should require either extreme (rare) evolutionary adaptation by monsters, or special skills and tools.

One way to aleviate the tunnelling scare might be to simply build your Fortress deep enough inside the earth that the risk of tunnelling into it would far outweigh any potential rewards, for your enemies getting through your defenses-natural and otherwise.

[eerr]

I don't think it's for or against, I think it's a matter of HOW

[Urist McDetective]

Tunneling through soil/sand sounds like a good middle ground, imho. Perhaps if they limit themselves to Z Levels -1 to -3. (or as soft ground levels delimit)

[praguepride]

I don't know how I feel about "tunnelers killing themselves" if the map itself kills off sieges because they keep trying to dig too deep..what's the point? Why not just have the AI ignore magma in its pathfinding, ignore cliffs as well and just march straight into the volcano?

If a siege enters the map, I want the driven off by something *I* did, not the AI just killing itself.

exceptions do exist, namely when the whole map is on fire it's funny to watch the siegers come at the wrong time, but generally, if the map is more likely to kill off the goblins then the player then why even bother having them come on at all?

The whole point of tunneling was to increase the difficulty, not *just* to watch goblins suicide themselves.

[Footkerchief]

^^^ If you're responding to a particular point, please quote it.  This looks awfully like an argument that Silverionmox already addressed, and I'm pretty sure SHB was saying that siegers would simply not dig if the risks for them outweighed the rewards.

[RAM]

Oooh, some of those give me an idea, maybe they can only tunnel within about 3 tiles of an existing tunnel, make them plan their tunnels when they first arrive so that they don't tunnel from their own tunnels.
It has already been mentioned that they could keep track of casualties and avoid places where many have died. To me, tunnelling isn't about getting past bridges and walls. In time, bridges and walls should be vulnerable, but at this point in the game's development I have no problem with an on/off switch for sieges, and a safe way to block off a passage. I don't really use bridges myself...
What I have a problem with is an impenetrable killing field. If the only way into a fortress is to go through a 3x1 corridor that ends at a tight corner than faces a 6x6 grid of marksdwarves behind fortifications, or even just a 1x1 tunnel that opens up to an open room filled with military dwarves(can melee attacks be made across Z-levels?), then your fortress is pretty much as impenetrable as it would be if it was surrounded by a channel...
I can only see two options. Either attacks have a way to completely bypass a bottleneck, tunnelling should work. Or declare some fortresses to be invulnerable to invasion, and try to balance it some other way, such as offering bonuses of some sort to fortresses with multiple large passages to the outside world...