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[G-Flex]

I know this is an issue pandemic to fantasy fiction and games, but DF seems to try to go for realism and detail, so this might be worth mentioning if it hasn't been mentioned before:

"Plate mail" is contradictory and "Chain mail" is redundant. "Chainmail" is a neologism, with the historical term being simply "mail", which necessarily refers to the chain-linked type of armor. "Plate mail", therefore, doesn't really make any sense. "Chain armor" and "Plate armor" (or similar terms) would make more sense.

Yeah, this is a tad pedantic, but hey, I figured I'd mention it anyway. Not really anything too important.

[Capntastic]

This has been brought up before and I dunno how it's ended before but I find myself firmly in the 'apathetic either way' camp.

On one hand, people are used to the terms as they are now.   On the other, realism is nifty.

[profit]

I agree, the chain mail and plate mail looked odd to me.

This is a fine suggestion.

For example:
Steel Chestplate and  Steel Chainmail would be good instead of chain mail and plate mail.

[Reasonableman]

If we wanted to be seriously realistic we'd have to think about everything in-between, like scale mail and lōrīca segmentāta and all that nifty stuff. So at the moment, methinks the issue is rather pointless. Whenever (if ever) armor gets overhauled, names'll be changed to appropriately reflect the type of armor they represent. At the moment, everything's basically a stand in as far as realism is concerned. In terms of gameplay devices, it seems alright to me.

[Schwern]

"Plated mail" refers to mail armor with integral plate reinforcement.  What "plate mail" in game is probably referring to is "plate armor", the classic knight in shining, which is plate over mail.  That might explain why people refer to it as "plate mail".  You're correct that "chain mail" is relatively recent (OED says 1822).

So yes, it should be "plate armor" and "mail".  But in game armor is handled piece by piece, so referring to the upper body piece as "plate armor" is still not correct.  All the pieces of full plate armor (greaves, gauntlets, etc...) are handled separate.  It might be better to have a the upper body armor be a mail "hauberk" with an optional "chestplate" over.  That would more realistically reflect medieval full plate armor in the DF clothing system.

Yeah, this is a tad pedantic

We're talking about the game that has about three dozen different all but identical types of stone, right?

Now we can argue about "armor" vs "armour".

[van]

"Plated mail" refers to mail armor with integral plate reinforcement.  What "plate mail" in game is probably referring to is "plate armor", the classic knight in shining, which is plate over mail.

Well that depends on the time period, early plate armor was just "chain mail" with some metal plates over it, over in the 1500-1700 century it was a total conversion, with chain only covering joints like the armpit or groin, and even then it could have been done with leather instead of chain.

FunFact: The latest versions of plate armor were strong enough to deflect all of the firearms invented at that time, except for the musket (which even then was very heavy and cumbersome).

[Pilsu]

We haven't called it mail for over 200 years. Largely because mail means something different now

Now to get the asshole linguists to yeild and finally make it official instead of insisting the language doesn't evolve and speaking in thees and thous

[bjlong]

This could be a relatively simple init option--"ANACHRONISTIC_TERMS:YES" by default.

[G-Flex]

We haven't called it mail for over 200 years. Largely because mail means something different now

There is no possible definition for "mail" which would make "plate mail" make sense, which isn't simply covered by saying "plate armor" instead.

Also, anachronistic terms make sense considering it's, well, an anachronistic game. Hence "brimstone" and not "sulfur".

If we wanted to be seriously realistic we'd have to think about everything in-between, like scale mail and lōrīca segmentāta and all that nifty stuff. So at the moment, methinks the issue is rather pointless.

Not really. Just because we don't have every type of possible armor represented doesn't mean we shouldn't try to properly name the ones we DO have.

[Mikademus]

We haven't called it mail for over 200 years. Largely because mail means something different now

There is no possible definition for "mail" which would make "plate mail" make sense, which isn't simply covered by saying "plate armor" instead.

* Mikademus jumps into the fray!

Sure there is. Mail with plates would be a "plate and mail", and in common conjunctives the "the" tends to be dropped.

And if you want to argue conservative usage of words, drop that bastardised American spelling of armour or you're still not using correct terminology.

[G-Flex]

We aren't even TALKING about mail with plates, though. We're talking about plate armor without any mail at all (well, except maybe at joints or something similar). I was referring to, you know, the armor we're actually talking about. Also, what you just said would be called "plated mail" anyway, as it's mail WITH plates, not mail MADE of plates.

[Mikademus]

Hmm, you must be hearing those whooshing sounds a lot?

[Mikademus]

(Double posting because I'm a bastard)

Also, anachronistic terms make sense considering it's, well, an anachronistic game. Hence "brimstone" and not "sulfur".

Oh, I forgot to call you on that. Either you're very confused about what "anachronism" means, or you're etymology is way whacked. Brimstone is OLDER than "sulphur", it originates from before 1150 from the Nordic "brynsten" (a pocked flint for striking sparks with), while "sulphur" is from the 14th century(1300-1350).

Also, you still spell "armour" wrong.

[G-Flex]

Ugh.

"Armour" vs. "armor" is a simple regional spelling variation.

"Chain" / "Mail (chain armor)" -> "Chainmail" -> "mail (metallic armor)" is a tad more complicated and based on some confusions regarding medieval armor styles.


And you're right, I didn't really mean "anachronistic" at all. I know that "brimstone" is older than "sulfur", which was my point - that it makes sense to use terms relevant to the setting. Hell, there's not even any benefit to SAYING something like "plate mail".

And seriously, this "language evolves, dammit" issue isn't nearly as clear-cut. Go ask people who actually study medieval arms and armor and they sure as hell won't be using the terms of normal fantasy. Sure, fantasy fiction uses them, but DF generally tries to go beyond that. Fact is that "mail" has only changed its definition as you describe within the realm of fiction. The actual academic world knows it's bunk. If plated armor (i.e. armor made from plates, not plated chain/mail) actually WERE called "mail" by anyone other than fantasy fiction/game authors, then you'd have a point, but it would be nice for DF to try being closer to academic and historical reality here, like it does in other fields.

[Pilsu]

I think it's safe to say a bunch of pedantic scholars who like to see themselves as elite don't weigh a whole lot when it comes to language itself. It's been called chain mail for more than two hundred years, better get used to it