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[Solifuge]

-snip-

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Berserk anime was honestly pretty hard for me to watch, for a few reasons. I really do like the style of that Manga, though; the way those lines suggest contour, all the detailed shading and hatching, and how all the shapes are all organic and gross as fuck. Definitely see some Hellraiser DNA in Berserk's design and setting, too!


I'm pretty behind on mainstream animoo, but figured it's time to check out Trigger. Blazed through Space Patrol Luluco in an afternoon, which was as weird an experience as expected. Really dig the mixed art style, and the tone in general. The Mysterious Pretty Boy thing is tired, but I think it's intentional, and it makes a good setup for some comedy in a show with 10-minute episodes. Interesting how far the "I just want to live a normal life!" trope can be stretched in a weird-ass setting like this, too.

Spoiler: P.S. Can't speak for the accuracy of the subs, but Luluco's dating advice to herself is def. Top Tier (click to show/hide)

Trying to decide between Gurren Lagan or Kill La Kill next. I've heard some good things.

[Frumple]

GL is definitely the... let's say it pushes less boundaries? I guess would be the best way of putting it. As bloody weird as it is to say it in reference to Gurran Lagan, it's probably the more restrained of the two. So I might suggest watching that one first. It also came first, so... there's that. _{though if you're looking for really early trigger, you might consider watching Dead Leaves. I'm... fairly sure it was probably the least restrained of any of trigger's works I'm aware of. there's a scene where one of the characters gives birth and the child comes out guns blazing, iirc. There is no metaphor involved in that description.}

That said, story qua story et al, KlK is almost certainly the better show of it and GL. GL is great fun, but it's not really particularly notable in terms of plot and characterization et al, imo. KlK actually kinda' tries at that, as bloody bizarre as parts of it get. _{as an example, you could probably be told that there's a terrorist/rebellion organization in the show called Nudist Beach. It is called that because the members go into combat and do most things, y'know. Nude. There's actually plot reasons for that, but... yeah.}

[Reelya]

Gunbuster 2 / Diebuster also feeds into TTGL a bit with the concepts. Since it's short, it's also worth a look.

[Hawkfrost]

GL is definitely the... let's say it pushes less boundaries? I guess would be the best way of putting it. As bloody weird as it is to say it in reference to Gurran Lagan, it's probably the more restrained of the two. So I might suggest watching that one first. It also came first, so... there's that. _{though if you're looking for really early trigger, you might consider watching Dead Leaves. I'm... fairly sure it was probably the least restrained of any of trigger's works I'm aware of. there's a scene where one of the characters gives birth and the child comes out guns blazing, iirc. There is no metaphor involved in that description.}

That said, story qua story et al, KlK is almost certainly the better show of it and GL. GL is great fun, but it's not really particularly notable in terms of plot and characterization et al, imo. KlK actually kinda' tries at that, as bloody bizarre as parts of it get. _{as an example, you could probably be told that there's a terrorist/rebellion organization in the show called Nudist Beach. It is called that because the members go into combat and do most things, y'know. Nude. There's actually plot reasons for that, but... yeah.}

Gurren Lagann actually has some decent characterization, if you look. You can see this most notably in the dynamic between Kamina and Simon; Kamina is this big larger-than-life figure that enraptures everyone and is super charismatic, and Simon is the socially awkward kid who looks up to him as a role model.

Spoiler: These are Gurren Lagann spoilers. (click to show/hide)

The thing is, Kamina is completely full of shit.

He's not confident, he's not strong, he's not the best and the most badass, he just pretends to be. And the reason he does this is because he knows Simon can be the person he wishes he could be, as long as he provides an example for him. So he doesn't let his insecurity show, he doesn't let people see him in despair or shaken, he forces himself to snap back and just go for it no matter what they encounter, because in the end that's what Simon needs, and it's the character that everyone else needs as well. They need a hero: someone to rally around, even if it's a fake.

He needs Simon to not realize the person he really is, not see through the facade.

Everyone succeeded in breaking out and rebelling against Lordgenome not because of what Kamina himself managed to accomplish, but because of what he managed to inspire in those around him. What does Kamina really do? He gets beat up a bunch and they win some minor battles against fringe forces mostly through the plans Simon comes up with, even though Kamina gets all the credit. He's not a particularly amazing pilot, or a phenomenal fighter, he's just a guy that everyone likes. Kamina dies because he's not as good as he pretends, and his bluff finally gets called.

Simon realizes his own potential after this and becomes Kamina; the real version of the fake, and accomplishes everything that Kamina promised them way back in the beginning because he had that ideal of what to reach, the person he wanted to be.



Nia also might seem like a cardboard cutout that doesn't do anything the entire show, but she's the driving character of the plot, essentially. After his hero dies and Simon is left in despair, she's the person that completes him, that gives him motivation and a goal; The entire reason he is able to pull himself up out of that hole and become a hero is because he met her. If they hadn't found Nia in that dump, the entire rebellion would have ended in failure. Likewise, Nia is the motivator that compels Simon to break the control the Anti-Spirals hold over them and free the Spiral races. If she hadn't existed, they would have died on Earth and everything would have been for nothing. After she's gone, Simon has nothing left and turns into an old hobo that wanders aimlessly. He may be the greatest hero ever of their race, but without a goal he's just a nobody again.

In terms of the plot,

Spoiler: Also Gurren Lagann spoilers. (click to show/hide)

It's actually interesting that the story is about reverse entropy, ultimately. The boundless potential of life is a risk to the universe itself through the unstoppable forces of evolution, progress, and expansion. The only way to stop this is to cease all growth and keep the universe in stasis, but the Spiral races can't do this. Just like how humans are driven to succeed, built, and expand, so are Spiral races. It's built into their DNA, they can't stop themselves from doing it even knowing they will bring about the end of the entire world.

And they don't find some magical solution, some convenient quick fix. The show ends with the main characters basically saying "well, it'll happen eventually, hopefully we'll find a way to deal with it by then." That's a bit grim of a conclusion.


The concept of the show follows it's own internal rules quite well, and the second half is actually quite a good sci-fi/science fantasy story, with humans backstabbing each other during a crisis to try and find a way to save themselves.
I honestly don't get why some people think post-episode 8 the show "turns to shit". Before that it's a fairly standard battle shounen with some deeper elements sprinkled in that don't sprout until after that point. It may not be as bombastic or over the top, but it's definitely more complex and consistent.

[JoshuaFH]

Yeah, watching Luluco first is odd because it references pretty much every Trigger work so far (excepting Kiznaiver and the highschool girl one, so far...)

But yeah, I've watched Gurren Lagann from beginning to end something like 7 times, and the movies atleast 2 or 3 times. That was probably the peak of my fanboyism for anything, so I'll recommend it.

KLK pretty much takes everything the studio learned from GL, and polishes and refines it, so I'll admit that it's the better show as well.

[Frumple]

Gurren Lagann actually has some decent characterization, if you look. You can see this most notably in the dynamic between Kamina and Simon; Kamina is this big larger-than-life figure that enraptures everyone and is super charismatic, and Simon is the socially awkward kid who looks up to him as a role model.

Ah, yeah, don't mistake me, the characterization and plot and whatnot in GL isn't even remotely bad, or anything. Would even be pretty comfortable calling it fairly good. It's just not a terribly notable departure from other works in the... well, genres that GL ends up romping around in. KlK definitely goes a bit further out there on that front, which is the statement I was trying to make, probably clumsily.

[IronyOwl]

Spoiler: These are Gurren Lagann spoilers. (click to show/hide)

The thing is, Kamina is completely full of shit.

He's not confident, he's not strong, he's not the best and the most badass, he just pretends to be. And the reason he does this is because he knows Simon can be the person he wishes he could be, as long as he provides an example for him. So he doesn't let his insecurity show, he doesn't let people see him in despair or shaken, he forces himself to snap back and just go for it no matter what they encounter, because in the end that's what Simon needs, and it's the character that everyone else needs as well. They need a hero: someone to rally around, even if it's a fake.

He needs Simon to not realize the person he really is, not see through the facade.

Everyone succeeded in breaking out and rebelling against Lordgenome not because of what Kamina himself managed to accomplish, but because of what he managed to inspire in those around him. What does Kamina really do? He gets beat up a bunch and they win some minor battles against fringe forces mostly through the plans Simon comes up with, even though Kamina gets all the credit. He's not a particularly amazing pilot, or a phenomenal fighter, he's just a guy that everyone likes. Kamina dies because he's not as good as he pretends, and his bluff finally gets called.

Simon realizes his own potential after this and becomes Kamina; the real version of the fake, and accomplishes everything that Kamina promised them way back in the beginning because he had that ideal of what to reach, the person he wanted to be.



Nia also might seem like a cardboard cutout that doesn't do anything the entire show, but she's the driving character of the plot, essentially. After his hero dies and Simon is left in despair, she's the person that completes him, that gives him motivation and a goal; The entire reason he is able to pull himself up out of that hole and become a hero is because he met her. If they hadn't found Nia in that dump, the entire rebellion would have ended in failure. Likewise, Nia is the motivator that compels Simon to break the control the Anti-Spirals hold over them and free the Spiral races. If she hadn't existed, they would have died on Earth and everything would have been for nothing. After she's gone, Simon has nothing left and turns into an old hobo that wanders aimlessly. He may be the greatest hero ever of their race, but without a goal he's just a nobody again.

Spoiler: These are also Gurren Lagann spoilers (click to show/hide)

Most of this is plot more than "characterization," though. Notably, the fact that Kamina is full of shit isn't really mentioned or explored very well; he does fine in most fights, even the ones where he's outmatched, and his death is both too abrupt to look like he just got outplayed and surrounded by too much badassery to look like he dun goofed. The end result is more of a neat bit of trivia to the major plot point and character development of Simon having to man up than anything to do with Kamina or Simon's character directly.

Notably: What would have changed if Kamina really was super badass? Basically nothing, other than the First General presumably being way more dangerous than previously thought.

Mia even moreso. She's super plot-relevant, sure, but still has very little characterization herself. Her contribution to Simon's characterization is similarly too low-key to matter all that much; yes, it comes up, but not super noticeably or irreplacably in that particular manner. You'd need to shuffle a lot of things around without her, but the basic flow of Despair -> Overcome Despair -> Eh Nevermind could have worked with just about anything without super changing who Simon is.

Spoiler: Also Gurren Lagann spoilers. (click to show/hide)

The concept of the show follows it's own internal rules quite well, and the second half is actually quite a good sci-fi/science fantasy story, with humans backstabbing each other during a crisis to try and find a way to save themselves.
I honestly don't get why some people think post-episode 8 the show "turns to shit". Before that it's a fairly standard battle shounen with some deeper elements sprinkled in that don't sprout until after that point. It may not be as bombastic or over the top, but it's definitely more complex and consistent.

Spoiler: Also also Gurren Lagann spoilers (click to show/hide)

"Turns to shit" is probably a bit harsh, but I'd agree that the first half was better than the second. The first half had a coherent, interesting concept in the rebellion in the wastes thing. The second was basically the modern world with the public and Politician Boy freaking out and ruining everything. The first had interesting and varied villains and hardware. The second had bland faceless (heh) drones pretty much by definition. The first had a lot of colorful characters doing colorful things. The second was mostly everyone doing legal stuff or fighting in space, and seldom in any different manner than anyone else.

If you summarize the first half, you miss out on a lot of amusing minutiae, like that Gurren Lagann's samurai helmet is actually the pilfered damaged energy cannon from an enemy lieutenant or that the beastfolk run a surface bathhouse. If you summarize the second half, you mostly get a clean transition; "then they all fight in space" doesn't leave out that whatshisface had different ideas, "over public perceptions" doesn't leave out that there were political ramifications keeping a major faction from behaving differently, and "kill all humans" doesn't leave out that they actually needed some humans around because reasons.

Put very, very simply, the first half was much more interesting than the second, which was fairly bland and largely rode off the first half's characterization and worldbuilding. If it'd been an outright sequel, people would have rightly claimed they just ran out of ideas and so decided to make the setting modern and cynical so they could kill half the supporting characters in space.

[JoshuaFH]

I guess I'm the only one that liked the second half more than the first half.

[Radio Controlled]

For what it's worth, I found gurren lagann much better than klk. Couldn't even finish the latter despite trying to start watching again after I dropped it the first time.

[Neonivek]

Huh... I am finding out my major criticism of Sailor Moon Crystal... The lack of characterization for any sailor scout who isn't Sailormoon...

Was actually not in the manga... it was either reduced or cut altogether.

That in spite it actually having a generous number of episodes for a series without filler, it was still rushed...

Interesting O_O

Though it does say that the live action is the best adaptation of the first arc.

[Flying Dice]

The original run had a ton of filler with surprisingly good characterization.

[Neonivek]

The original run had a ton of filler with surprisingly good characterization.

It is also my favorite! though people were really antagonistic towards it at the start of Crystal... UNTIL the end where people's passion cooled and they were kind of like "yeah... ok the original cartoon was kind of better... or different. or not that bad."

I think it was just Hype... People who read the original Manga were hoping Crystal would be the definitive version that would finally dethrone the original run. So they were a lot harsher towards the old series and much kinder to the new one. It wasn't until it finished its first season that the full vision was met.

[JoshuaFH]

Sailor Moon Crystal at an inherent disadvantage from not being aired before the advent of high speed internet and the proliferation of infinite free high quality porn. New Sailor Moon isn't helping any young boys through puberty like the original did, it's doomed to be inferior to it's predecessor.

[Parsely]

I watched Genius Party. My favorite shorts were the one with the baby (seriously that baby was a badass), the one with the zombie kids, and the one with the kid who dribbles snot everywhere.

[BFEL]

I'm pretty behind on mainstream animoo, but figured it's time to check out Trigger.

You are in for a treat sir. "Made by Trigger" has literally become a reason to be on my watchlist.

Kill La Kill is easily the greatest thing humankind has ever conceived of, so you should probably watch everything else first or you'll just be disappointed it isn't more KLK.