Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

I don't mean in a "You haven't proven yourself" way

[Reelya]

It doesn't matter whether it's overtly a "prove yourself" trope. The trope exists to make it look less like the world only exists for the hero's benefit.

Presumably the hero getting the training is important to the plot, but we don't want things to go super-smooth or it looks like it's plot on rails. We also do not want to derail the story we're trying to tell with unimportant stuff.

All that adds up to making the master reluctant, but dropping that once the training is underway, because we want to focus on the hero not the master. The master is not the main character. And the core theme of the work is probably not centered on the master/apprentice relationship.

[Neonivek]

Unless the master IS the main character.

At which point... The trope is still played the same way

"Ohhh no an apprentice NOOOOOOOO!!!"

"Well now that I have one there are no issues. Not even me finding you a pest"

[Reelya]

Again, harping on certain points that aren't central to the story would be constant plot derails.

Characters don't need to shit or piss in most series either.

[Neonivek]

Again, harping on certain points that aren't central to the story would be constant plot derails.

Characters don't need to shit or piss in most series either.

It is the plot raising a fuss about a detail...

But in the end it was raising a fuss for the sake of raising a fuss

Drama for the sake of drama without any character or world building.

Pointless Drama.

I wanted to hear of an anime where a Master didn't want to take on an apprentice for personal reasons... and once he accepts the apprentice those details, those reasons, actually come to light instead of never existing in the first place. Where the drama is actually significant instead of existing for the sake of existing.

In otherwords I wanted to hear of better fiction, better plots, better animes.

[Radio Controlled]

I'm almost starting to think anime just isn't for you.

[Neonivek]

I'm almost starting to think anime just isn't for you.

Is expecting there to be anime out there with legitimate drama that unusual?

I mean if I took your statement seriously the natural conclusion is you are saying ALL anime is irredeemable trash that just plays out tropes blindly.

It is rare I am on the side of "Anime isn't garbage" and everyone is on the other side

[Radio Controlled]

Nah, not just this, but the general way you've been talking in here makes it seem, to me, that anime might not be the ideal medium for you. Or that maybe you need a break from it or something, I dunno. Told ya man, learn to drop shit if it sucks, there's so much more out there that doesn't.

[Reelya]

In otherwords I wanted to hear of better fiction, better plots, better animes.

I disagree that it would be automatically better, for the reason I pointed out. Not having any friction would make a series too smooth. But having all the friction become full-on plot points would make the central narrative too disjointed.

That "drama for the sake of drama" is there for a reason. Without it things feel too easy and thus fake, but if it overwhelms the main plot, you have a problem too.

It's not just the one point you raised, it's all the little points that you're also glossing over, like characters not needing to shit or piss like I said. If you are right to call for your one glossed-over point to be expanded to a complete sub-plot, what about everyone else and every other glossed over point? Not just in bad shows but in good shows too. Lots of things are glossed over in any series, because that's what you need to do to tell a story. You can't nitpick that they glossed over "plot point X" but ignore that they also glossed over "plot point Y". if they're going to expand everything to be 100% consistent then there will be no main plot anymore because the daily-life side points will take over.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nah, not just this, but the general way you've been talking in here makes it seem, to me, that anime might not be the ideal medium for you. Or that maybe you need a break from it or something, I dunno. Told ya man, learn to drop shit if it sucks, there's so much more out there that doesn't.

Ok then... let me break down the conversation if you want to pick on me.

Why do anime characters ALWAYS have issues with having an apprentice...

And then once they actually become their apprentice it turns out there was never an issue?

Does anyone have an exception?

Here you see I am making an observation about some anime I've been watching.

And then asking people if they have seen an exception to this rule. As in an anime where a Master refuses an apprentice but then the reasons they didn't want one actually turn out to be legitimate.

But lets continue on

I have no idea what sort of issues you're talking about. Can you give examples?

Reelya asks what I mean

"ohh no I don't want an apprentice NOOO!!! UGH NO That would be terrible!"

*He becomes his apprentice*

"I am perfectly happy with this decision and there were no issues whatsoever"

I give an emotive response

You get than in most fiction

Reelya explains that this trope exists and why it exists

Sure, but retroactively saying there were never any issues? I think often there are issues, but the apprentice grows and proves his worth.

You raise a point

I don't mean in a "You haven't proven yourself" way

I disambiguate

It doesn't matter whether it's overtly a "prove yourself" trope. The trope exists to make it look less like the world only exists for the hero's benefit.

Basically... (and click on the quote if you need to read it) but Reelya repeats his points.

Unless the master IS the main character.

At which point... The trope is still played the same way

"Ohhh no an apprentice NOOOOOOOO!!!"

"Well now that I have one there are no issues. Not even me finding you a pest"

I disambiguate again by stating that my example can include where the Master IS the main character. Thus it would cause issues with Reelya's statements

Again, harping on certain points that aren't central to the story would be constant plot derails.

Characters don't need to shit or piss in most series either.

You attack me for having an opinion

I wanted to hear of an anime where a Master didn't want to take on an apprentice for personal reasons... and once he accepts the apprentice those details, those reasons, actually come to light instead of never existing in the first place. Where the drama is actually significant instead of existing for the sake of existing.

In otherwords I wanted to hear of better fiction, better plots, better animes.

I defend my right to having an opinion in that I am not actually focusing on the negatives anyhow but rather I am asking people if they have heard of positives

I'm almost starting to think anime just isn't for you.

You attack my right to enjoy an entire medium of entertainment

I'm almost starting to think anime just isn't for you.

Is expecting there to be anime out there with legitimate drama that unusual?

I mean if I took your statement seriously the natural conclusion is you are saying ALL anime is irredeemable trash that just plays out tropes blindly.

It is rare I am on the side of "Anime isn't garbage" and everyone is on the other side

I bring up, once again... That I am not trying to tear anime apart.

Nah, not just this, but the general way you've been talking in here makes it seem, to me, that anime might not be the ideal medium for you. Or that maybe you need a break from it or something, I dunno. Told ya man, learn to drop shit if it sucks, there's so much more out there that doesn't.

You do it again and say that lack a right to my opinion unless it is one you share.

Not even worth it.

----

In otherwords I wanted to hear of better fiction, better plots, better animes.

I disagree that it would be automatically better, for the reason I pointed out. Not having any friction would make a series to smooth. But having all the friction become full-on plot points would make the central narrative too disjointed.

Not really, they have made it work in several stories.

Heck "Earth's Mightiest Disciple" is interesting in that by all means they had every excuse to make the teacher's refuse him as a student.

And "Karate Kid" remake actually does show why the guy initially refuses to teach the kid any martial arts and is one of the best parts in an otherwise flawed movie... and that 'issue' doesn't go away once he starts teaching him.

Yet it doesn't even have to be personal reasons or a big drama llama. All that I am wondering is if there is an anime where the master as much as sighs for how much work it is to teach an apprentice.

Where the reasons for the reluctance actually are tangible after the fact.

[Sergarr]

For example in the standard hero's journey structure there's a point called the "refusal of the call". This is where the hero, in his ordinary life rejects the call to go off on the adventure, but then fate or somesuch kicks his backside to actually go do Hero Things.

If you're talking about that "monomyth" thing, no it's not a standard hero's journey structure. It has elements of such, but it's very much not a standard's hero journey, it's more of "standard hero fanfiction story".

[Neonivek]

Well the Monomyth is so "vague" it applies to everything anyhow.

[Radio Controlled]

Ok then... let me break down the conversation if you want to pick on me.

Dude, relax. I'm not picking on anyone, if anything I'm trying to help. I mean,

I'm almost starting to think anime just isn't for you.

You attack my right to enjoy an entire medium of entertainment

How do you even read that like an attack? It's just how it appears to me, that anime is a big source of irritation and anger for you, and from that, I think it might not be a bad idea to maybe let it rest for a while. And if not, sure, do what you want. It's a free world! But don't see antagonism where none exists, that'll just cause unnecessary conflict.

Nah, not just this, but the general way you've been talking in here makes it seem, to me, that anime might not be the ideal medium for you. Or that maybe you need a break from it or something, I dunno. Told ya man, learn to drop shit if it sucks, there's so much more out there that doesn't.

You do it again and say that lack a right to my opinion unless it is one you share.

Again, you do what you want. If watching anime makes you happy, even though (to me) it seems it also causes you a lot of frustration, then more power to you my friend. But don't work it out on other people, or look for attacks where there are none.

[Neonivek]

I don't want your help. Leave me alone Radio Controlled.

[Radio Controlled]

I don't want your help. Leave me alone Radio Controlled.

Very well, if that is what you want. Good luck with it!