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[Chaos]

Fair points, but it forces me to bring up the question of just how intelligent the "primitive races" are. After all, they share the same [INTELLIGENT] tag as the other humanoids.

[AlanL]

As far as i know, Goblins, Humans, Elves, and Dwarves are all about the same intelligence, kobolds are close, if not the same. Lizardmen, batmen, ratmen etc. are probably less, but still have quite a bit, afterall, batmen make blowguns.

[Savok]

quote:Originally posted by Chaos:
<STRONG>Fair points, but it forces me to bring up the question of just how intelligent the "primitive races" are. After all, they share the same [INTELLIGENT] tag as the other humanoids.</STRONG>

By the same logic, dwarves are the only race that isn't an undead or similarly unusual race; they are the only ones who eat, drink, or sleep. (ok, not in adventure mode, but dwarf fortress mode is the main one)

[Dreamer]

Too bad there aren't undead dwarven strongholds...  That'd be more dangerous than a regular ruin, what with getting lost and the tight corners and all.  Scary stuff.

I didn't realize that primitive races had an intelligence tag, though.  Perhaps they have the potential to become great races, rather like humans, but are just undevelopped, unorganized, and unlearned (Lots of "uns").  Kind of like cavemen, but hairier and slimier.

Either way, I think it would be too redundant to have another 'play a civilized race' deal.  Putting together a bunch of ragtag ratmen and sneaking over (Up?) to the dwarven fortress to steal things, kill people, and get food would be more exciting, especially if it were one of your old fortresses.  So the potential is there, but the primitives are simply content stealing other races' technologies and putting it to their own use until it falls apart.

Hm, maybe primitives won't get unhappy thoughts from poor clothing, unless they get used to nice clothing...  And, perhaps they could have more options with different armors and such, altering things that are too small or large so that they fit.  That'd be interesting and very different.

[ August 19, 2007: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

[nerdpride]

I didn't know Warhammer had a fantasy setting.  Does it play with miniatures and things still?

All of the fantasy settings are bound to be similar.  If the "playable ratmen" are "rip-offs" of Skaven, then the ratmen in the game now probably are too, unless they actually have a hidden altruistic streak or something that most players probably don't care about anyways.  

I think that games mostly go for this kind of common setting that people are already familiar with anyways.  It doesn't diminish the quality of the game, it just reduces annoying things like having to learn about another whole world.

This is just something interesting to think about.  For example, what would ratmen have instead of the dwarves' moods?  Salvator's books in the Forgotten Realms setting had dwarves get a "mood" about once in their lives where they never made an item better than their one artifact-like creation.  Maybe ratmen just reproduce faster or have some other constant benefit?  The dwarves' possible bonus skills are quite helpful, sometimes.  How would this be balanced in a multiple-civilization game?

Now that my creative juices are flowing, I think I'm going to go back to developing my roguelike.

[Chaos]

quote:Originally posted by nerdpride:
<STRONG>I didn't know Warhammer had a fantasy setting.  Does it play with miniatures and things still?</STRONG>

You sure do. I don't play myself tho.

quote:Originally posted by nerdpride:
<STRONG>All of the fantasy settings are bound to be similar.  If the "playable ratmen" are "rip-offs" of Skaven, then the ratmen in the game now probably are too, unless they actually have a hidden altruistic streak or something that most players probably don't care about anyways.</STRONG>

Well, I may have put it a bit loosely. As you say, as far as fantasy races go it is difficult not to be inspired by similar ones in other settings. With such specialized races too, it is likely that there will be some similarities. What I meant is that someone who knows about those similarities is likely to note them. Sort of...  

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>
By the same logic, dwarves are the only race that isn't an undead or similarly unusual race; they are the only ones who eat, drink, or sleep. (ok, not in adventure mode, but dwarf fortress mode is the main one)</STRONG>

Ok, you totaly got me there.  

quote:Originally posted by Dreamer:
<STRONG>I didn't realize that primitive races had an intelligence tag, though.  Perhaps they have the potential to become great races, rather like humans, but are just undevelopped, unorganized, and unlearned (Lots of "uns").  Kind of like cavemen, but hairier and slimier.</STRONG>

Sounds reasonable. After all, human civilization has been a gradual process.

Other than that, isn't the point of having multiple civilization choises sort of to have multiple ways to play? I mean the already planed races are all quite distinct with their own ways of living, gathering food, making things and so on. Continuing on that track, potential primitive civilizations would likely play quite differently from the advanced ones.

Does this make sense, I don't usually talk (type) this much.   :confused:

[mickel]

Rats reproduce like mad. I wonder if that would be an advantage in Dwarf Fortress though, given that it'd just give you a massive, unmanageable horde that needs to be fed or they go crazy.

Of course, rats are scavengers, dwarves are not. If you combine the massive breeding with, say, the ability of all rats to find food on their own and be content with that (happy thoughts from being fed at all, no unhappy thoughts until they get famished and dehydrated)...

That would all have to get balanced, of course. But generally, I think it'd make sense to have rats be a lot better at hunting small creatures for food.

Part of the thing with rats is you can kill two of them. You can kill two hundred of them. But you'll never kill them all.

[Haedrian]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>Part of the thing with rats is you can kill two of them. You can kill two hundred of them. But you'll never kill them all.</STRONG>

Until the day you flood their nest with lava...

[mickel]

There's always going to be more rats. Flooding their nest is about as permanent as the gobbos killing one of your adventurers. You just know they're going to come back...  

[Kyselina]

Hmmmm.... IF Toady do this, DF will rock. But what about Artifacts? Proffesions? And you would need AI for dwarwes...

[Dreamer]

I imagine that, if it does come into play, it'll be after all the races get a nice do-over on their home turf, meaning Dwarven homelands will have skilled laborers, farms, bedrooms and tasks.  It would also seem odd that dwarves are the only ones that you would be able to live off of; humans and elves likely have as many problems as dwarves do with the critters, if to a lesser scale...  Dwarves practically build their fortresses on the ratmen's home, while none-mountainous civilizations attract the pesky pests.

(And yes, Warhammer's the game you see in the obscure gaming store with thousands of individual customized miniatures, a rough cardboard city, and guys measuring out things with flexible rulers.  It looks dang fun, but good luck finding the cash and time for it.)

That aside, if we want to discuss what ratmen do and what they are, I've always been a big fan of taking dozens of other ideas (This author says this, but this one...), looking to where those ideas originated (Ancient mythology and such), figuring out what would be best for your setting and adding your own ideas and inspiration when possible (So, let's make them like parasitic cavemen).  This usually ends up with something unique and original, depending on how much you borrow from others and how much you add or take away.

Pure mythological beings, or their variants, are rarely used (Such as trolls; their females were originally beautiful, magic wielding women, while men were either the same or more along the idea of modern trolls) and they're usually the most entertaining to play with (A Will-o'-Wisp luring adventurers into traps or treasures and such).

So there are plenty of ways to make a unique race of ratmen that are similar to other's interpretations, in that the things are ratmen, but different in many other respects. (If that makes any sense at all.  If not, ignore and continue conversation.)

But now I'm just rambling...   Hope I got someone thinking, though.

[ August 20, 2007: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

[mickel]

I picture them living underneat human cities just as much as dwarven ones, as I think I said in the first post. They'd tunnel into cellars and the like.

Bit harder for them to make it with the elves, I don't see the elves throwing away quite as much refuse.

[Dreamer]

I doubt they keep everything.

A ratman has stolen an +Elven Mudpie+!

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Kyselina:
<STRONG>Hmmmm.... IF Toady do this, DF will rock. </STRONG>

yeah, because the games pretty much for little girls, as it is.  

seriously, the only way i see things like this happening (because there really arent enough features and bloats to keep Toady busy as it is) is if the data files are opened up enough that they can be modded in by players.

and thats not out of the question.  it sounds like a great deal of mod support is going into the new version.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by puke:
<STRONG>
(because there really arent enough features and bloats to keep Toady busy as it is)</STRONG>

I don't understand why he's going at it alone...  :confused: