Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Yes

9 (40.9%)

No

13 (59.1%)

Total Members Voted: 22

[profit]

I was thinking about dwarves and their love of mechanical things *You have to admit this cannon is cool -> http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/herald/images/betajournal/WAR_betajournal-2.jpg and I came up with a transport system in my head that is fairly low tech but could still haul a fairly good load at decent speed.

The bad part about this is it would need to add more items to the game in order to be somewhat realistic and could easily become unbalancing if care was not taken.

Anyhow.  The basic design is a player lays out a track on the floor of their fortress and when a dwarf needs to go some where he steps on the transport system and it calculates the time it takes for him to get to his destination.

After that calculation is done the dwarf is held in a buffer until the time has elapsed and then comes off the line wherever he is supposed to come off at.

This will reduce unit pathfinding costs as the path only needs to be calculated once.
This will also reduce graphics usage as the dwarf is not shown carrying his stone anymore.
This will allow fortresses to be built more effiently as stockpiles and workshops can be connected and perhaps reduce the number of haulers that one would need, or make the ones you have work more efficiently, while once again at the same time reducing lag.

Now for the complicated part... How this monster is built.

The required components.

#1 Fine tubing - This is made at the metalsmiths forge at the ratio of 15 for every bar of metal used.  These can be made out of Copper, bronze, iron or steel and take 15 times as long as a normal workshop item.  Since in my mind it would also be far more difficult to make fine tubing they should also recieve exp bonuses while doing this task.

#2 Drive rods - These can be made out of iron or steel at the metalsmiths shop they produce 5 per bar of metal and require 10x as long as normal metal objects to create

#3 Springs - These can be made out of iron or steel at the metalsmiths shop, they produce 10 per bar and require 25x the time of a normal object.

#4 Fine mechanisms - These are machined from a mechanics workshop, do not require a fuel to produce, and produce 10 per bar requiring 10x the time.   They can be made of copper, bronze, iron, or steel

#5 Rope - Pig tail rope would be fine

#6 Rails - Produced from iron or steel at the metalsmiths shop, 4 per bar at regular speed.

#7 Air Tank - Produced from copper, bronze iron or steel,  Produces 3 per 1 bar of metal takes 3x as long to build. 

#8 Accelerators - These can be assembled in a mechanics workshop and need A rope, A drive rod, a spring, fine tubing, and 2 fine mechanisms.

#9 Rail ties - These can be assembled at a masons shop using stone, carpenters shop giving 2x per piece of wood, or a metalsmiths shop using iron or steel giving 4 for every bar.

Now for the actual transport system itself.

#1 The rails - Each segment would need  1 accelerator and 1 piece of fine tubing if it is under 5 tiles long or 2 if it is up to 10 long, and 1 rail and a 2 rail ties for every length of track

#2 The Compressor - This is a pump that requires 100 units of force to operate * so you would need 2 water wheels to run one because they only give 90 a piece*  This produces a 100 units of air power every few seconds.

They need 2 drive rods, 3 pieces of fine tubing, 2 fine mechanisms and a block to build

They can also be dwarf powered but they would only produce 10 units of air power instead of 100.   Or they can wear a dwarf out really fast.   

Also would like to have a boiler option and maybe a magma boiler option as well

Also if a player needs more power they can build more compressors anywhere along the lines and it will help power it.

#3 The air tank - This is where the force is stored, when placed next to a compressor it can store up to 5000 units air power. Uses an air tank, a fine piece of tubing and a block to build.  More of these can be added if the player believes its warranted as well.

#4 Car Depot - This is just required for the operation of the transport system. It Requires quite a bit of metal as I am abstracting building the cars inside it for the system and a couple blocks to build.

#5 *Forgot this one*  The lift - For traveling through Z levels.  Needs everything a 1 square track would need Plus 4 drive rods and 4 more fine tubes.

All that building will Net the player a really really neeto dwarven transport system.

The energy used is dependent on the weight carried by it, so rock moving will take a lot more air power than wooden flute hauling but there will always be a minimum due to the weight of the dwarf.

Probably should produce dwarf happy thoughts as well because it is a massive project to undertake... and I know it would produce a happy thought in me to not have to lug a stone block 5km to the masons shop.

[Draco18s]

So...in other words...Mine Carts

[profit]

Really cool ass mine carts. *IMO*

Besides dwarves over engineer everything.

[Silverionmox]

Sounds fitting for a DF in space mod.

There are some ways it doesn't really fit though:
- Too abstracted: DF tries to simulate a lot of detail, to allow emergent situations to arise (eg. dwarfs in transit who are hit by falling rocks and therefore fall in the adjacent channel)
- Not modular enough: a lot of these component buildings as well as parts don't really have a function on their own, or wouldn't function if just placed together. (eg. a wall is a wall, but well-placed walls form a room. Bars have many uses; bars linked to a lever can be a gate, part of a large trap, part of a pit trap, etc.) It's better to have multiple parts that do things, but who can do more things just because the player places them right. (eg. ballista at the end of a long corridor)
- Too modern: violating the tech limit as well as, more importantly, the atmosphere.

[profit]

I reject this is beyond dwarf abilities, dwarfs have always used some decent technology in every bit of fiction....

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/Blushinmushroom/XCN_ENG_Overlord_Screen_1.jpg in overlord

http://www.1000steine.com/brickset/images/7036-1.jpg in lego's

http://www.freewebs.com/warhammertrench/dwarf%20cannon%202.bmp Dwarfs using cannons

http://www.necrotales.com/graphics/showcase/showcase_dwarf_zep_02.jpg Dwarven Aircraft

In warhammer online their strengths are listed as ->
    * Automated turrets that can fire without assistance
    * Long range attacks
    * Area of effect damage through grenades and turrets

http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/Gaslight/ArabLS5.jpg Dunno but its a dwarven steam tank.

http://www.chainsmokingdryad.com/img/morrow/gdr_a_3.jpg In morrowind, * the steam pipe is linked to steam engines and they used automatons.

http://www.wolfknights.com/wow/TheGreatForge.jpg in World of warcraft.

Almost every dwarven city in almost every game uses steam/air power, and the dwarves have about a 1850 level tech level + fantastic designs.. so don't tell me it doesn't fit... Frankly until someone suggests a dwarven space ship or dwarven mainframe supercomputer, its really within what dwarves have always done.  The dwarven cities in WoW have complete working trains. This just being an air powered piston used for driving a mine car is WELL within dwarven fiction.


And yes I know its abstracted, but not being abstracted enough is causing people to lag all to pieces... Maybe we should skip counting every grain of sand in order to have a fortress with more than 1 frame generated every couple seconds. And if for some reason a massive improvement in the code is made where we can reasonably do so, then the design can be changed and the player can watch their dwarf ride in the mine cars.

And I see no reason why it needs to be so modular, I mean coins are not modular, flutes arnt modular....  Track pieces will automaticly link of course and handle themselves like walls would.

[Silverionmox]

What dwarves use in other games is irrelevant; in this one, the atmosphere and tech level is intended to be around 1400, undoubtedly with some not society-disrupting exceptions. In fact, if everyone else follows the same path that's all the more reason to look beyond that.

I don't mind abstraction per se, but it seems to that it goes against the design objectives of the game. In other games you might build a watermill using x resources, and when the construction bar is full 100 power appears on the status bar, to be used by buildings. In DF, they need to manufacture mechanisms, cut wood, install a gear assembly, bring pieces of wood, attach it to the gearworks, hook up the gearworks with axles to the machine you want to power and then that machine is powered, and no other. And if you want to turn it off, you need to install a lever too.

Coins & flutes are modular enough because they're small, and they won't do anything without a dwarf anyway. Everything within a square can be abstracted, but interactions between squares shouldn't. If a cave-in happens, you need to know what parts of the machine are still functioning and which not, and what happens because of that, and whether the dwarf in transit is caught in the cave-in or not.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Anyhow.  The basic design is a player lays out a track on the floor of their fortress and when a dwarf needs to go some where he steps on the transport system and it calculates the time it takes for him to get to his destination.

After that calculation is done the dwarf is held in a buffer until the time has elapsed and then comes off the line wherever he is supposed to come off at.

I disagree with this on the premise that dwarfs should never 'vanish' from the world/map to re-appear some ware else, it presents all kinds of programming problems with things that depend on location and distance values existing for a dwarf at all times.  Its also confusing to the player as well.  Any transportation system that is implemented must maintain a dwarfs physical location at all times to be even remotely compatible with the present system. 

I also don't think what your proposing is tech-level appropriate.  Its not even clear WHAT your proposing as you listed components without actually clarifying what kind of system it is, my guess is your talking about pneumatic subways because of the air-tank component.

Simple mine carts that move on rails and require a dwarf or draft animal to move them is a long standing eature request which is accepted as tech-level appropriate.

[profit]

I disagree with this on the premise that dwarfs should never 'vanish' from the world/map to re-appear some ware else, it presents all kinds of programming problems with things that depend on location and distance values existing for a dwarf at all times.  Its also confusing to the player as well.  Any transportation system that is implemented must maintain a dwarfs physical location at all times to be even remotely compatible with the present system. 

If the game cannot handle it then let the dwarf go for a ride visibly, but I was attempting to remove the stalls that occur when dwarfs path find and the lag that comes with it.

What dwarves use in other games is irrelevant; in this one, the atmosphere and tech level is intended to be around 1400, undoubtedly with some not society-disrupting exceptions. In fact, if everyone else follows the same path that's all the more reason to look beyond that.

Oh.. so its ancient dwarf fortress, or dwarfs in the stone age....  If that is what everyone wants its fine, but unless its stated somewhere that these are primitive dwarves then how else are we supposed to make judgments on what is appropriate other than look at what has been done.

Coins & flutes are modular enough because they're small, and they won't do anything without a dwarf anyway. Everything within a square can be abstracted, but interactions between squares shouldn't. If a cave-in happens, you need to know what parts of the machine are still functioning and which not, and what happens because of that, and whether the dwarf in transit is caught in the cave-in or not.

Size has about zilch to do with modularity.    You cant use a flute in 5 different ways, its not modular.

Anyhow back to the original transport system.

Yes its a form of pneumatic subway system. I had envisioned more of an push system as a mine cart ran over an accelerator it would be driven by the push of a pneumatic cylinder then coast to the next accelerator.

All that being said, it may not be a workable idea, as I stated in the original message, still but I absolutely reject the argument its not tech level appropriate, unless this is "Primitive Dwarf Fortress" which while that maybe the case its not stated anywhere.

[Mikademus]

Really cool ass mine carts. *IMO*

Sure, cool idea. It has already been suggested some 20 or 30 times.

[Savok]

I'm not going to reread the posts enough to quote parts of specific ones, but here's the (obvious) response to your dwarf tech problems:

Toady has not coded a tech progression yet. All civilizations are at the same point in technology at all times, from the beginning of the world to the very end. The only differentiation in anything that can be considered technology is the ability of the player to build things, which is entirely independent of the civilization's tech abilities.

I assume that Toady will eventually get it so that some civilizations can be more technologically advanced than others. Then, any tech level is realistic as long as you have a way to get to it (worldgen, maybe?).

At the moment, the tech level of all civilizations is roughly medieval, but that can be changed.

[Milskidasith]

Actually, dwarves have steel (and others don't), and it's entirely possible to get a worldgen where humans have access to iron or have access to lesser materials only (at least according to the wiki).

[ogion]

Well, why don't you also suggest using magnetite ore to build magnets, and create a mag lev train?

I personally feel this is more fittin in a Railroad Tycoon game than DF. But that's just my humble opinion...

[Footkerchief]

Actually, dwarves have steel (and others don't), and it's entirely possible to get a worldgen where humans have access to iron or have access to lesser materials only (at least according to the wiki).

Yes, but there's still no progression -- civs either have materials/items/professions, or they don't.

[Foa]

Actually, dwarves have steel (and others don't), and it's entirely possible to get a worldgen where humans have access to iron or have access to lesser materials only (at least according to the wiki).

Yes, but there's still no progression -- civs either have materials/items/professions, or they don't.

Erm, melt the metallic objects you obtain through ambushes, sieges, and 'trade'.

And they could use the hand/foot lever to propel the damn thing, also, it grinds some stats.


Also this isn't the age of eftards, they can use metal, rope, dams, domestication, and modification, not just wood and rock, don't underestimate tha Dwarves, they can make alloys, fell giant beast, tame the beast, and use the beast, thems have booze, and the glasses, shiny gems and religion, fire, forges, siege tactics, they're just fantatic.

tl;dr:
I don't READ ANYWHERE that it is the FUCK HEADED DUMBASS ERA!!! Anywhere!

[Footkerchief]

Actually, dwarves have steel (and others don't), and it's entirely possible to get a worldgen where humans have access to iron or have access to lesser materials only (at least according to the wiki).

Yes, but there's still no progression -- civs either have materials/items/professions, or they don't.

Erm, melt the metallic objects you obtain through ambushes, sieges, and 'trade'.

I assume you mean as a human or kobold or whatever?  The only reason that works is because Human/Kobold Fortress is a hack-ish mod and fortress mode doesn't respect entity tags like MINOR_METAL (ordinarily this doesn't matter because dwarves have all materials anyway).  It's just an exploit, not a tech progression.