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[Neonivek]

Teleporting enemies would be completely impossible to defend against, short of having guards patrolling every square inch of your fort

No it is simple... They should be spotted eventually... and then you SHOULD be able to take them out.

If your trying to go for a "No one should ever die" then yes it is impossible.

However if your willing to take a few losses the Teleporting enemies can be put under control by a well trained military and a well boobytrapped fort.

[MagicJuggler]

It's not a point of "can we defeat them" but a case of "is this a fair fight?" If they have teleportation and you don't, its a cheap advantage you're giving to the computer to compensate for it not being able to intelligently siege using conventional methods.

We all know that walls and floors block magma, correct? What's wrong with the custom vehicle idea, with several prefabricated vehicles for Goblins? Siege towers could be built on the site, with them adjusting height based on the level of wall they wish to breach. Battering rams could be used for tearing down gates or even walls, while sieging an island could involve the creation of temporary harbors for easing the unloading of troops. Finally, the Goblins should have a priority for trap disarmament, sending in slaves to test traps so that their rank-and-file troops know where to avoid...

[Sowelu]

Re: turtling up and just ignoring siegers who can't possibly get into your perfect adamantium fortress:

"Bomrek Okodok was upset at being under constant siege for three straight years."

Minus ten happiness for the first full year of unbroken siege...doubled each additional year.  It's a matter of PRIDE.  And nothing, not even goblins, scares players more than unhappy dwarves...

[MagicJuggler]

Realistically though...is the player going to have an entire fortress of adamantium? Even so, if adamantium is so durable, how was the player able to mine it in the first place? Srsly

[MMad]

Didn't read the whole thread - in a bit of a hurry - but for what it's worth (about 2 cent, I'd guess), I think that in a perfect DF, invading enemies should be able to counter any strategy the player could possibly come up. If player builds moats, goblins bring bridges over them. If player builds walls, goblins bring trolls to tear down walls. If player builds lever-linked bridges and retracts them to drop goblins in chasm, goblins learn not to walk on player's bridges, or to only cross one person at a time. If player builds traps, goblins bring expert trapfinders. If player trains marksdwarves, goblins bring siege towers and heavy shields and stuff. If player consistently floods goblins with highly pressurized water, then.. well, I dunno, perhaps they learn to avoid that area and tunnel in somewhere else.

The point is that I feel players who want a real challenge should have no easy way out, not in moats or traps or siege weapons. Possibly in exceptionally clever fortress design, but even those should be possible for invaders to subvert, though it should be very difficult. Obviously all this is far from the current situation and will probably never be fully realized (even if Toady were to agree with me, which I don't know), but I think it would be a good goal to strive towards.

NB: I don't think every fort should be doomed to be invaded by eventually insurmountable forces, Moria-style. There should always be safe, cozy areas with no invading enemies where a reasonably diplomatic player could be at peace with all his neigbours and concentrate on building monuments and the like.

[Silverionmox]

An arms race would be great as an emergent feature. However, the goblins themselves need to have the economic means to procure those weapons. Tunneling beasts, great, but how do they catch/feed/breed/tame them? Etc.

What's the point of building a fortress when you know the goblins will inevitably bring wall breachers?

[MagicJuggler]

When we eventually get the ability to dispatch armies and to build areas beyond our initial fortress, a potentially viable strategy would be to raid enemy villages and outposts in order to disrupt their supply lines and to acquire loot and slaves. When the food system gets revised in a manner that one cannot simply make booze biscuits, and once the farming system is enhanced to a point that Dwarfs eat more than once every few months, it would require substantially more land to keep Dwarfs happy, and thus you'd see more farms beyond the city walls...

[Neonivek]

It's not a point of "can we defeat them" but a case of "is this a fair fight?" If they have teleportation and you don't, its a cheap advantage you're giving to the computer to compensate for it not being able to intelligently siege using conventional methods.

Instantly negated by the genre your in. Dragons can breathe fire and spread it to your base. something your incapable of doing (or at least as easily)

The Bronze collosus and Ironmen are immune to organ damage as well as having large Damage block

You even have several advantages no other NPC has that is beyond their AI (Some which need to go away, some that the enemy should also have, and some to define the player)

I am not against teleportation as a whole. If you mean enemies instantly gaining teleportation for no reason... then yeah. (of course if the only way they could harm you is by having teleportation... then it makes sense that the only enemies that WOULD attack you are the ones with teleportation)

[MagicJuggler]

It's not a point of "can we defeat them" but a case of "is this a fair fight?" If they have teleportation and you don't, its a cheap advantage you're giving to the computer to compensate for it not being able to intelligently siege using conventional methods.

Instantly negated by the genre your in. Dragons can breathe fire and spread it to your base. something your incapable of doing (or at least as easily)

The Bronze collosus and Ironmen are immune to organ damage as well as having large Damage block

You even have several advantages no other NPC has that is beyond their AI (Some which need to go away, some that the enemy should also have, and some to define the player)

I am not against teleportation as a whole. If you mean enemies instantly gaining teleportation for no reason... then yeah. (of course if the only way they could harm you is by having teleportation... then it makes sense that the only enemies that WOULD attack you are the ones with teleportation)

My argument still stands. The advantages Dwarfs get (such as their innate damage resistance and martial trance) in general tend to cancel out disadvantages such as their reduced size and weapon options...likewise, the powers of megabeasts are negated by the fact they have relatively low numbers, or (in the case of Dragons) that such powers can be turned to your own ends. So the fights are "fair" in that powers are roughly equal to each other.

Now contrast with a group of teleporting invaders, that could evade your entire army and move towards systematic slaughtering of your civilian population, or the elimination of individual soldiers, teleporting away before they get hit by whatever crossbows/etc are in the way...if one could find ways to balance them (e.g. they can only teleport within line of sight), this wouldn't be an issue.

[Neonivek]

one could find ways to balance them (e.g. they can only teleport within line of sight), this wouldn't be an issue

I think we are getting too far into the hypatheticals at this point since I am having a hard time knowing what you actually MEAN by teleporter. In this case they SEEM like a unique enemy and thus would go under "Nonstandard Challenge". Though you SEEM to be describing something like "Powerful Goblins that can teleport whole armies into your base in and out at any point whenever they want".

I don't think Teleportation outside of set creatures should be a power that is bound to be developed by the enemies as a counter to an unbeatable base. Though if the only way into your base is Teleportation then only enemies that can teleport should attack, even if that means you will only get attacked once every hundred years (Have fun with that )

[Align]

I was just kidding when I suggested teleporting enemies, but a rare stalking creature that can teleport every n'th move it gets would be cool to watch. And play as.

[Tormy]

I was just kidding when I suggested teleporting enemies, but a rare stalking creature that can teleport every n'th move it gets would be cool to watch. And play as.

Why? The "teleporting ability" is a very good idea actually. If a feature like that is balanced, that just adds to the gameplay value. [Example: The creature won't teleport all the time, just very rarely.]

[Milskidasith]

How about teleport sends an enemy randomly up or down from 0 to 2 z levels into any square it can get into, with a y and x axis range of 30 squares. It activates immediatly on any wound brown or worse. Recharge time of a week (or whatever makes it balanced, 2 days, 3 days, something).

Basically, a fun way to make hunting... fun! Also neat for sieges, because they could charge the front line and teleport away in a way that could either put them back with their allies or put them in the midst of your less well defended marksdwarves.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget that Teleporting enemies used sparingly is just a challenge in the same way Megabeasts, even though they are largely supperior, are a challenge.

Sure they can teleport in your base and kill a few people... and thus will take a while to take down... but they are hardly fort destroyers.

As for Magic and Teleporting Civs, that is another story.

[Silverionmox]

Why would a creature that is able to teleport let itself be killed?