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[Luke_Prowler]

Two train of thoughts I have noticed are how to summon the energy to use magic, one to use energy from the caster and the other from the earth itself. Personally I don't see why both can't be used at the same time. The Caster would use his own energy the draw the "mana" from his/her surroundings, then use it. This would allow varying levels of how much one types of energy is used over the other, so places that are magically blessed would allow casters to not have to use as much of their own energy.

The way I see runes, They draw energy from the world around them without effecting the wielder. They can be affected by what they are carved into, what they are trimmed with, and their quality (so a masterfully crafted Adamantine sword with masterfully crafted Gold trimmed runes and studded with diamonds would be a cause of worry). Their effects can different from one another, but some always be on, while others have certain requirements to work.

I may have just repeated what someone else said, so I apologize if I did

[Neonivek]

Id also would like to see magical effects stemming from individuals, items, and creatures absorbing too much magic.

Depending on the flavor and the mindset of the individual it could have a multitude of effects!

[bjlong]

That's a pretty interesting runic system.

Has anyone played the game Lost Magic? In it, you would draw runes to make spells. What was really fun was that you could combine two or three runes to make a different spell.

Generally, the formula was that the first rune determined how the spell would work (beams, explosions, healing) and the second rune would determine its element.

We might want to consider that system--each place is significant, so a runic engraving of ABZSE would be significantly different from ABZS or ABZES.

[Tormy]

Just a not about rune crafting and rune magic.
What if we would be able to put specific runes into various objects? [IE. socketing system] Those items would bear the properties of the installed runes.

Id also would like to see magical effects stemming from individuals, items, and creatures absorbing too much magic.

Depending on the flavor and the mindset of the individual it could have a multitude of effects!

Yeah, this is why I've posted about the Dice & Glory magic system here:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24622.msg364394#msg364394

[Neonivek]

So are we going with "Runes offer control" or are we actually going to go with "Runes have legit power of their own"?

[Tormy]

So are we going with "Runes offer control" or are we actually going to go with "Runes have legit power of their own"?

Both options should be valid, this is why I've said, that only specific runes could be installed into items.

[Osmosis Jones]

I may have just repeated what someone else said, so I apologize if I did

Heh, it's always great when someone agrees!

So are we going with "Runes offer control" or are we actually going to go with "Runes have legit power of their own"?

I'm thinking a bit of both, depending also on the system you want to work with. If you use environmental mana, runes could be used to both guide it, and to convert it into spell effects (say a specific rune would consume 1 mana unit per hundred ticks, and light the surroundings for that time).

For other systems, such as the hunger magic, maybe they could simply provide weaker spell effects without drawing energy, (say a constant enchantment of keenness) or more potent enchantments when activated (by whatever means, with attendant costs).

Both options should be valid, this is why I've said, that only specific runes could be installed into items.

Ninja'd

[Granite26]

Hm, since we are talking about the sources of magic and it's possible effects, I would like to mention the Dice & Glory magic system.
It's pretty interesting, let me explain:

There are 3 basic origins of magic, which are the Arcane, Channeled magic and Sorcery.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Arcane: Magic of arcane origins is drawn from the fabric of the universe using arcane skill and mystic knowledge.
Since magic of the arcane variety puts such a strain on the caster’s mind and the magical forces involved also drain
the body of vitality, though experience toughens casters against this mystical exhaustion. -> Casters using this source of magic don't have mana at all.

Channeled: Magic is channeled from a specific source and is limited by that source, its nature, alignment and shear
magical power. -> The caster channels energy from the environement basically. Note: The aligment of the area is important!

Sorcery: Magic that is drawn from the personal life force of the caster or a natural magic talent and cannot be
learned. Sorcery requires the use of mana energy which can be drawn from willing creatures, or from
the caster’s own reserves. -> This is the "ordinary" mana based approach, however "leeching" mana from living creatures is also possible here.

Thoughts?

I'm still preaching my two tier system.  Everything you describe is possible under it.

[Mikademus]

But then we're back at that the most dwarvish kind of magic --runes-- is just your generic AD&D "[generic weapon] +3".

You could argue that it's just your generic Tolkien-esque (or Nordic, or Warhammerish, or whatever) runic mythos, not just D&D. I suggested it precisely because it was the most common runic trope I've encountered, and it was practical, rather than any love of D&D.
Remember, just because something is common doesn't mean it's bad.

Aye, a system of generic bonii is easy to implement and rather convenient. It is also a bit boring and feels a bit not Dwarf Fortress in that it doesn't have any disadvantages.

Another alternative how to balance runic items (weapons) might be that the wielders must perform a ritual to activate or align with the weapon: calling out its names, those it has slayed, etc, a ritual that takes a certain time. Or that he must be skilled in Runic or Esoterics or something to gain benefits from it.

Which honestly strikes me as an irritating system. The last thing I want my soldiers to be doing as the goblins storm the breech is to sit around talking to their swords.  If you want the runes to consume energy, by all means have them draw it from the environment, ... Alternatively, make it use the energy from their kills. Afterall, if dwarves can produce soul sucking weapons, surely they'd realise that it's better to draw it from the target than the wielder.

But that's the point. You're basically suggesting a system where magic items convey advantages for no cost (inconvenience) for the user/wielder. That's why I suggested that the more powerful a runic (boosted) item is the more time it takes to activate as a way of associating a disadvantage to the power. The bulk of this thread has been devoted to finding ways to balance magic so that every advantage comes with a disadvantage. If it sounds irritating that they can't immediately jump glowing with buffedness into the fray then that's what it should be.

I like your notion of the weapon being gradually awakened by being soaked in blood, or used against its intended target. That would mean that the dwarf would grow more and more fearsome as the battle progresses

"Rapetwist the Goblin in hit
Runefang, the Toddler of Nightbread, stirs
Kiddensnacker the Goblin is struck in the heart
Runefang, the Toddler of Nightbread awakes!"

[SirHoneyBadger]

I think that anything that requires a prolonged delayed reaction on the part of your dwarfs, when you're waiting anxiously for them to defend themselves, is going to not just be irritating, but cause entire unrealistic shifts in game-play strategy.

"Oh so I can't use my best-equipped soldiers for 10 minutes...so I'll just build 50 ballistas near the front lines, and channel the entire environment into an elaborate death-labyrinth so that anything that attacks my fortress...are those damn dwarfs ready yet?!...attacks my fortress, will get struck several times." Rather than just sending out the guards in emergencies.

[Impaler[WrG]]

If it sounds irritating that they can't immediately jump glowing with buffedness into the fray then that's what it should be.

A masterfully crafted steel sword allows 'buffedness' with no delay, I see no reason that magically enhanced items can not be balanced by the the difficulty and expense of their creation just like all conventional weapons and items.

[commondragon]

Its all very simple:

1. Gather all of the methods, mediums, and types of magic we can gather
2. Make it all raws controllable
3. Place a little of each in there
4. Leave it to the player to control the level of magic and what spells the world uses
5.
6. To make up for those who cant , have modders make some for others...
7. more
8. PROFIT!

[bjlong]

Perhaps runic weapons could be hard to make, expensive, hard and expensive to maintain, and require some small "mana" sacrifice from the wielder? Moreover, crafting failures with runic weapons could completely deconstruct the weapon down to scrap metal.

[Tormy]

Perhaps runic weapons could be hard to make, expensive, hard and expensive to maintain, and require some small "mana" sacrifice from the wielder? Moreover, crafting failures with runic weapons could completely deconstruct the weapon down to scrap metal.

Yeah I agree, but I don't quite understand this "hard and expensive to maintain" idea of yours. What did you meant exactly? You are talking about an "upkeep cost"? That sounds kinda weird, since we are talking about items. Care to explain your idea? 

[Osmosis Jones]

But that's the point. You're basically suggesting a system where magic items convey advantages for no cost (inconvenience) for the user/wielder.

I simply think it shouldn't be the user who pays. The crafter of the rune, by all means, who should pour his heart and soul into the crafting, should suffer whatever penalty, but forcing the cost onto the user seems both unfair to your poor military, and potentially highly irritating (having soldiers run back for a snack every five minutes).

Also, the user pays system leads to issues in situations where the rune isn't actually wielded, say runes engraved onto statues or similar, whereas some X cost per rune created, payed during construction, has no descrepancy regardless of the runic substrate.


Quite frankly though, I'm in love with my own idea, like I'm sure you are with yours, so I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye. The important thing is that Toady sees what we've written and it helps him make our favourite game that much better. Now I'm off to bed. 40hrs is way too long between sleeps.