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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 44908 times)

Silverionmox

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #225 on: December 16, 2008, 11:57:20 am »

D&D's system was based on Jack Vance's Dying Earth books, but it made more sense there: the memorization was required just to perform the spell ritual smoothly. It was just a facilitating part of the preparation rather than the essential part.
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Hoborobo234

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #226 on: December 16, 2008, 12:10:15 pm »

No, thiese things are wrong. Magic, can be used by demons.Fact. Magic is not natural to more lowly creatures (dwarves, Elves,humans ETC.) By learning the language, behaviur and writing of Demons, one maybe able to used magic in a more primative and basic way. Pentagrams, runes, yes. Spell casting time (as in DnD NWN) would also count as well as distractions and concentration. Runes and engravings could be used on solid objects as well as book writing and magical documents, Parchment,scrolls etc. Mana, yes, maybe stronger in places where Demons are present or there are large quantities of magical artifacts and the like.
 Many Dwarves can learn magic, but it takes the most intellectually gifted in order to use it, and it takes many years to master. Wizards are members of any race that can use magic to a fair extent, others can use it in weaker spells and more basic runes and writing. Spells can be recanted from books and weapons engraved apon by a magic user, have certain values that are unmatched,such as fire or strengh.
 Beings that are unable to use magic are usually jealose of Magic users, or others could be against it and may be able to persade others of their view.(Huge Crusades against wizards?) Animals or primative species (Lizardmen etc) could do magic without knowing it and blow something up (thoguh this would cause bugs) And certain members from the primative tribes may be part of the magic users group and could be well known.
 Summoning could be used, but by groups of wizards, because one could not muster such magic, especially big things like elephants, but smaller creatures could be sommound on ones own, such as a familiar or a small vermin creature.
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Rather than having them directly force you to mine adamantine, I would suggest that they give you strange moods that require adamantine. "Dig out the adamantine or Urist here goes insane and dies" is suitably vicious.

(It occurs to me that you can probably get "Lovecraft" as the random name of your fortress. That's when you know you're screwed.)

Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #227 on: December 16, 2008, 12:32:37 pm »

No, thiese things are wrong. ... text text text

Thank you for telling us all the previous discussion is wrong. What you're talking about is mostly the user-space level of magic (that is, things like schools, invocations, speaking in a queer voice, whathaveyou). The discussion, or rather the creative and interesting discussion that adds a DF flavour to the game and actually has a chance of being implemented or at least cannot simply be modded in later in the raws, is about the foundation of magic and how to balance its use (gain) against disadvantage (challenge).

Daemonology might very well have a part in the game as a flavour for a race or situation, but it is not a basic constituent (if daemons use magic that must come from somewhere, eh?). However, in a way, daemonology could be in the DF spirit, because the benefit form using it is that you have a daemon, the disadvantage is, well, that you have a daemon *grin*
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #228 on: December 16, 2008, 02:14:47 pm »

did you actually understand any of that?

bjlong

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2008, 03:08:29 pm »

Perhaps the method of collecting mana could have an effect on its effects? For example, mana collected from demons would always be destructive, while mana collected from the fortress could help build things or create temporary constructions. Mana taken from dwarves could help the healing process, prevent diseases, or summon phantom dwarves.
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Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #230 on: December 16, 2008, 04:00:27 pm »

"Coloured" or tagged mana would be cool...  You could have it be completely covered by random.

Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #231 on: December 16, 2008, 04:39:24 pm »

Hm, since we are talking about the sources of magic and it's possible effects, I would like to mention the Dice & Glory magic system.
It's pretty interesting, let me explain:

There are 3 basic origins of magic, which are the Arcane, Channeled magic and Sorcery.

Arcane: Magic of arcane origins is drawn from the fabric of the universe using arcane skill and mystic knowledge.
Since magic of the arcane variety puts such a strain on the caster’s mind and the magical forces involved also drain
the body of vitality, though experience toughens casters against this mystical exhaustion. -> Casters using this source of magic don't have mana at all.

Channeled: Magic is channeled from a specific source and is limited by that source, its nature, alignment and shear
magical power. -> The caster channels energy from the environement basically. Note: The aligment of the area is important!

Sorcery: Magic that is drawn from the personal life force of the caster or a natural magic talent and cannot be
learned. Sorcery requires the use of mana energy which can be drawn from willing creatures, or from
the caster’s own reserves. -> This is the "ordinary" mana based approach, however "leeching" mana from living creatures is also possible here.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 04:45:04 pm by Tormy »
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Impaler[WrG]

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #232 on: December 16, 2008, 05:09:09 pm »

So long as their is a system of 'Ruin Smithing" in DF I'd be pleased, Ruins generally take two forms, those made on permanent items which enhance the item in some continuous and permanent way and Ruins made on disposable materials which are inert until 'spent' by breaking the item across the ruin (analogous to the use of a scroll in most magic).

Ruin Smithing is generally considered the ultimate profession and skill in dwarven culture (some interpretations have it as a hereditary 'blood line' power which must be developed on top of the inheritance), those who practice it are second only to the king in respect and authority.  The particular details of how 'mana' is used are not all that important, as long as it achieves the goal of limiting ruin crafting to a VERY small number of items (as rare as artifacts perhaps).
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Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #233 on: December 16, 2008, 06:05:46 pm »

Impaler, you meant "rune smithing"? If yes, than I completely agree...rune magic for dwarves is a must have of course. [PS: Rune magic is different from the "ordinary" magic systems, what we talked about on the last couple of pages, but it would be a neat addition, that is unquestionable.]
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #234 on: December 16, 2008, 06:51:09 pm »

Runic magic (discussed extensively in the other main threads on magic) also has a natural check in that it is slow to make and bound to the inscribed objects. It could be made to fit with the other ideas by making the wielder hungrier, and since we can assume mostly military dwarves will have runic weapons and they can't carry more than a few rations, they will have shorter effective time before refuelling.
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #235 on: December 16, 2008, 10:27:21 pm »

It could be made to fit with the other ideas by making the wielder hungrier

Honestly, I'd think runic magic would be the one branch of magic that should be exempt from hunger pangs. The most common runic trope, at least in my experience, seems to involve the wielder treating it purely as a regular weapon, that just happens to be extra-smitey. Considering runic weapons would most likely be wielded by soldiers and such with no magical training, the idea that you would give them weapons that effectively suck their soul out seems a bit much.

By all means apply any costs to the rune mage, but shovelling it onto the plebs seems a bit much. Daemon weapons however...  ;D
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #236 on: December 17, 2008, 03:24:38 am »

It could be made to fit with the other ideas by making the wielder hungrier

Honestly, I'd think runic magic would be the one branch of magic that should be exempt from hunger pangs. The most common runic trope, at least in my experience, seems to involve the wielder treating it purely as a regular weapon, that just happens to be extra-smitey.

But then we're back at that the most dwarvish kind of magic --runes-- is just your generic AD&D "[generic weapon] +3".

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... weapons that effectively suck their soul out seems a bit much.

You think? It sounds about right to me. Another alternative how to balance runic items (weapons) might be that the wielders must perform a ritual to activate or align with the weapon: calling out its names, those it has slayed, etc, a ritual that takes a certain time. Or that he must be skilled in Runic or Esoterics or something to gain benefits from it.

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Daemon weapons however...  ;D

Runes could be used to bind daemons in weapons? :) Anyway, yeah, these beasts should be vampiric as hell.
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Quote from: Silverionmox
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #237 on: December 17, 2008, 04:56:37 am »

The above "rune smithing" is kind of what I had in mind. Engravers (or "rune smiths", etc,  if you prefer a semantic distinction) would engrave Runes on the walls of your Fortress, which would be inlaid with gems/precious metals.

Here's what I have in mind for an (admittedly very elaborate) system, that I think would be broad enough to embrace a wide range of effects, but also interesting and rich/complex enough to be set into the incredibly detailed nature of the DF world:

The way I had in mind for it to function would be to make the various "runic alphabet" characters define what a given Rune would do, in a basic way.

Since it would be an alphabet, you could create spells by engraving "rune words" (perhaps called "Wyrds"? I'm fond of semantics, too...) onto the walls, in ordered groups.

The precious metals themselves would be used to define each separate runic word (or "Wyrd")---three characters set into silver or gold would define a given "Wyrd", that could then be laid beside four characters set in platinum or adamantium, or a single character "Wyrd" set in copper or iron, or 2 lead characters, whatever---and the metals themselves might indicate the overall nature of the spell (obviously, lead might be for malus effects, iron for combat spells, gold for resistance or "buffs", copper for healing, silver for transformation/change, what have you. "Demonic" magic might be governed by adamantium, with "holy" magic set in platinum.).

"Wyrds" might range from 1 to 7 characters in length, allowing for highly complex effects--and ofcourse tying into the mystical nature of the number 7.

Runes themselves could then further be defined in specific ways, by the gems inlaid into them. A powerful "demon-binding" rune might require specific runes set into adamantium, each inlaid with a single ruby. This fell "Wyrd" might be sufficient to dominate a single toad-demon, to, in effect, make it your friend and ally. To control a tentacle demon, 7 opals might be required instead. Control of a Spirit of Fire, on the other hand, might require 7 star-rubies.

If we assume 24-30 Rune characters (I'd suggest 27), and that each Rune could potentially be combined with all the others in "wyrds" of 1-7 characters, could then be set into various different metals, and inlaid with a host of different gems, then a near infinite number of effects might be possible.

The "spells" or effects the Runes caused could all be defined beforehand. Each effect could have it's own Raw, which would come into being in much the same way as a plate cuirass or a bone crossbow. You find the components (the runes), combine them in a formulaic fashion (on the walls, instead of in a forge), and then "create them" from whichever metal you chose. Gems would then act like spikes, as more or less of an afterthought.
A more important afterthought than spikes currently are ofcourse, since adding the right gem would define what a Rune exactly does.

To give an example: A Rune "Wyrd" that was being used to enchant a wand, might enable the wand to shoot fireballs, lightning bolts, OR a swarm of hornets, depending on the gem-type.

The same gems in a different Rune might enchant a ring so that it dealt fire damage, lightning damage, or poison, as a touch attack.

If those can be said to be "combat" attacks, set into iron, the same exact Runes, set into gold, might empower a ring to *resist* fire, shock, or poison damage,
If set into lead, the item worn might have a "curse" effect, by damaging the wearer with fire, shock, poison.

Set into silver, the same Rune-ring combination might allow the wearer to transform into a fire imp, a blizzard man, or an ant-man.

With each effect, each "Wyrd", or rune-effect, as a spell, completely defined from the beginning in the Raws, this system would have the advantage of being de-buggable before anything actually occurred in-game. I believe that this system should also lend itself well to Modding, and I think it won't end up being too out of place in the current overall "geography" of the game. Not a whole lot here requires the game to take a suddenly different direction, and everything here is already in the game in some form or another, so the pieces would just have to be strung together in a systematic way.

Another advantage is that, if the Runes are already being inscribed on the walls/floors/ceilings, and doors/windows/portals, etc. or whatever, then it would be easier for us, as players, to understand specifically *which* Rune "Wyrd" is doing *what*, *where*. If, for example, you have your dwarfs inscribe a "Wyrd" that keeps a door magically locked, you'd know exactly which door it is. It's the door with that specific "Wyrd" on it, and you'd just click on that door to get more information about it.

Weapons, armour, and other items could be handled in an only slightly more complicated way--every "Wyrd" in the game could be listed (like every animal, humanoid, etc.), on a given map, with a number beside it. Items linked to that "Wyrd" would then display a "Wyrd1" type message, telling you specifically which item had which "Wyrd" on it.

In keeping with the defensive nature of Dwarfs and Dwarf Fortress, having spells in the game exist as physical objects---the "Wyrds"---would allow them to then be destroyed, as well. Destroy the "Wyrd" and you instantly destroy the enchantment, rendering magical items inert, magical traps and locks disabled, magically bound creatures unleashed and hostile, etc. This could become as catastrophic as the erasure of a single "Wyrd" causing an entire floating fortress to fall out of the sky.

Dwarf rune-smiths might even have their very life-essence linked to the very first Rune they inscribe, forcing players to make strategic decisions about when and how they make the transition to magic, and who they risk allowing to use it.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #238 on: December 17, 2008, 06:33:58 am »

But then we're back at that the most dwarvish kind of magic --runes-- is just your generic AD&D "[generic weapon] +3".

You could argue that it's just your generic Tolkien-esque (or Nordic, or Warhammerish, or whatever) runic mythos, not just D&D. I suggested it precisely because it was the most common runic trope I've encountered, and it was practical, rather than any love of D&D. :P
Remember, just because something is common doesn't mean it's bad.

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... weapons that effectively suck their soul out seems a bit much.

You think? It sounds about right to me. Another alternative how to balance runic items (weapons) might be that the wielders must perform a ritual to activate or align with the weapon: calling out its names, those it has slayed, etc, a ritual that takes a certain time. Or that he must be skilled in Runic or Esoterics or something to gain benefits from it.

Which honestly strikes me as an irritating system. The last thing I want my soldiers to be doing as the goblins storm the breech is to sit around talking to their swords.
If you want the runes to consume energy, by all means have them draw it from the environment, which couples well with the methods outlined by myself and SirHoneyHadger earlier, allowing for all sorts of fun like turbocharging runes by flooding them with mana, turning a rune of plant fertility into the centre of a kudzu-like strangling bush, or converting a rune of wind (to remove miasma of course) into a tornado spawning nightmare.

Alternatively, make it use the energy from their kills. Afterall, if dwarves can produce soul sucking weapons, surely they'd realise that it's better to draw it from the target than the wielder. Indeed, soaking your sword in blood to activate the runes of fire would actually be fairly cool, simply because it would result in players launching slaving raids into neighbouring territories to ensure they have their full magical arsenal always ready at their disposal.
This then leading to an interesting choice for the player; power, or morality. Knowing my fellow DFers, the world will soon be dyed red with the blood of innocents. And Kittens.



@SirHoneyBadger, is your system designed for items, buildings or both? The way you describe it in the initial paragraphs, it sounds like its purely a construction thing, but you then start to talk about enchanting wands etc.

If it's both, maybe it would be an idea to limit the number of runes a single item can hold to less than a building, simply to balance the mobility of the item with the static nature of the rune?
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #239 on: December 17, 2008, 08:38:24 am »

@Mikademus : Under my described system, each Rune "Wyrd" would exist separately in space from the item it was enchanting, as a physical object. The magic would reside within the "Wyrd", but would be sortof beamed out to the item it was enchanting, functioning as a remote power source. This further necessitates and motivates the protecting and defending of your fortress.

This might also have strategic value, as the power of a given "Wyrd" might possibly degrade, the further an enchanted creature or object physically was distanced from it, or blocked by something, or it might disappear completely, if taken off-plane.

It should be mentioned, by the way, that this was designed to be a thematically "dwarf-centric" system of magic. Elves, humans, goblins, and other beings might have entirely different systems in place. Ofcourse, their systems might be similar in nature, and only different in the specifics.

Elves might, for example, link their magic to groves of specially grown trees/plants, in place of runes.
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