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[father_alexander]

Mikademus:
I don't think I agree with the idea that digging that deeply *should* increase the dwarfs' power, though. Not across the board, anyway. In some ways, sure. Magic should give you more options and more "toys to play with", and magic can always be a whole lot of fun, but I feel it's important for there to be things that strongly counter that power-up. That's why I suggested a major shift in the world, by "the heart of the mountain", or wild magic, or whatever you want to call it, being this vastly dangerous thing that you can either open, like Pandora's Box, or wisely leave alone. 

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

I really think a lot of thought needs to be put into the consequences (yes, I know it's a bad word) of powerful magic in the game. I feel strongly that they should be dramatic and severe. Even cataclysmic. It's desireable for the precipitous dwarf fortress "learning curve" to always be maintained, where the more you can do, the more that can be done to you.

I think there should be rewards for *not* digging "too greedily, and too deeply", and I think the stability of your fortress's environment should be one of them. After all, not everyone is going to want a lot to do with the more potent forms of magic, and it would be nice if this was a choice you could make as you played the game.

There are tons of games out there where magic is just icing on cake, where it doesn't serve any purpose other than to function as an excuse to increasingly reward play. I don't want magic in DF to be anything like that. I want it to have risks, and costs, and maybe even it's own agenda.

i completely agree with him, though i still have a doubt, you see so far i have never seen a dwarven wizard or things like that, normally dwarves are simply related to science, they are either able to build robots, or super cool weapons, or bring back the dead with super flashy systems, but i have rarely seen one even talk about magic, at most what i saw was in the lord of the rings wen they used the rings and found the balrog, but still i just cant feel sure about having a spellcaster.

maybe you could avoid having magic, how about calling wizards or mages to those that perform advanced science, like being able to bring back the dead, create super flashy weapons , etc, who knows maybe add them an X% of failure, if you try to bring back the dead you might end up with your fortress filled with zombies

still if we are going to have the magic, i think as badger said that it should have a big , BIG weakness or complication, making us doubt about using it, and having it only as an emergency system, uhmm maybe using sacrifices for spells? each time you use a spell, you have to kill, i dont know uhmm 5 dwarves? or 2 at random?

[Tormy]

Maybe the elves get their own indivdual heart of The Forest.

They go on a kinda of quest deep into the forest, while the Ancient, Sentient Tree in the middle throws challanges at the group. If/When the elves succeed, they get a little bit of Mana which expands as their experience with it grows.

Gives a reason for the term 'heart-friend'.

Well, if Dwarven magery will be linked to the secrets of the depths somehow, elven magery must be linked to the ancient [multi tile] trees. I guess that is quite logical.

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

Wrong. The system must be designed, so that all races will have access to more powerful magic if they have access to specific territorial features or buildings. Just read what I posted about the elves,  that is a good example. Also, having empowered/high tier spells doesn't means that it's gonna imbalance the gameplay.

[Jreengus]

Ok my thoughts on magic, as refined form when I last posted them in one of these threads:
There are X elements/winds/spheres/planes/whatever you want to call them of magic. There are also a limited number of wizards in the world these guys have control over every element of magic and are immortal, each wizard "Specialises" in one element of magic they are effectively the portal through which that magic enters this world.

Kill them (An insanely difficult task) and provided the resultant blast of pure unrefined magic doesn't completely wipe out the world then it will be impossible to ever use that type of magic again.

Other people can learn to control a single element of magic at a very basic level however to do this requires that they already have a firm understanding of the physical element associated to that magical element. So say we have a magical element of soap. Only a legendary soapmaker could learn to use soap magic, provided the wizard consents to teach them. And of course these people are pretty useless unless surrounded by the physical element associated with that magical element.

So with our soap magician he could probably keep his clothes clean in a normal fortress but in a fortress constructed of soap his power would be amplified and he could use much more advanced soap spells (Rain of Soap, summon bubbles etc.) Of course he would still be terribly weak compared to any other wizard lets say combat effectiveness wise he could be comparable to 5 champions.

Demons utilise their own magic, each demon acts as a channel for this magic and HFS is a massive source. Think of it like this if the magic enetering through the demon is that tap you left running then HFS is the equivalent of the Amazon river. So demons gain/lose power depending n how amny other demons there are alive and how many HFS have been breached (Adamantine is of course immune to all types of magic)

[Granite26]

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

Wrong. The system must be designed, so that all races will have access to more powerful magic if they have access to specific territorial features or buildings. Just read what I posted about the elves,  that is a good example. Also, having empowered/high tier spells doesn't means that it's gonna imbalance the gameplay.

As it stands, ANY new ability could be considered unbalancing.  Magma?  I'm talking to you!  That being said, I'd like to see ALL high level features cost balanced.

Anywho, you could arguably call dwarves' ability to build magma forges and whatnot their 'magic'.

[Tormy]

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

Wrong. The system must be designed, so that all races will have access to more powerful magic if they have access to specific territorial features or buildings. Just read what I posted about the elves,  that is a good example. Also, having empowered/high tier spells doesn't means that it's gonna imbalance the gameplay.

As it stands, ANY new ability could be considered unbalancing.  Magma?  I'm talking to you!  That being said, I'd like to see ALL high level features cost balanced.

Well, having access to high magic will be beneficial, however it should be quite dangerous in the same time, but I guess we've talked about that already.

[bjlong]

I'm still thinking about the idea of collective mana, even if the physical representation is out, since this might lead to interesting generative behavior. I also think it's dwarfy.

What if mana was a collective entity, shared between those who liked each other enough to allow it? For the Elves, the heart of the forest would be a collective mana source of the entire forest.

A single person's mana would be very small, but if there's a base of, say, a thousand people funneling mana into one person's magic, that could turn dangerous.

Of course, if we make wizards antisocial, this could lead to some interesting things. Urist McWizard would be dependant on his social friend Urist McTalksalot to make friends and collect mana.

I'm sure that with time, a person would be able to have more individual mana, but I don't think this should ever be enough to be useful.

[TrombonistAndrew]

The main benefits of keeping track of ambient mystical energy of places, I think, are:
- Spellcasters squabble for certain specific places, which are otherwise unremarkable, adding a new strategic dimension to the map. This would cause settlements to arise in very odd locations, befitting a fantasy game.

- Magic users may be powerful on their home turf, but are relatively weak when in another environment. This assures a diversity of settlements and magical practices. This in turn makes it possible to randomize more freely, because it hinders the use of magic as a direct weapon of conquest. Therefore some branches of magic can have bizarre, specialized uses without ensuring their quick extinction.

- Flavour and atmosphere: symbolism is functional. Rather than just having the AI do things in a specific way because of some irrational cultural imperative, give those salmon statues and midnight blue moose totems a function.

None of these benefits necessarily require an ambient magical field associated with certain terrain. The terrain features themselves already give enough of an advantage. Consider:

Frostus is a frost mage. He lives on a glacier, and as such can gain access too all sorts of frozen magic obtained from creatures and ice. He spends so much time there that he trains up some pretty impressive frost magic - and somehow survives the ordeals. Another mage, Flamo, a fire wizard comes along to kill Frostus because he has a grudge. But Flamo is at a severe disadvantage because he's on a glacier and doesn't have access to his multiple imps and magma. He has only what he could carry with him. He also knows a whole lot about using magma and other natural fire sources, but knows nothing about how to manipulate glacier. They battle, and because Frostus has access to hordes of frozen items and creatures, not to mention his knowledge of spells which use the natural freeziness of the glacier tiles, he easily freezes Flamo and is victorious.

There is no need to add an ambient magic field effect that magnifies this even more.

[Mikademus]

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

Which is exactly why I (and others here) for every suggestion have also introduced a checking disadvantage. For instance, using magic makes the user a ravenous scourge on your food and drink supplies, thus magic can easily destroy your fortress. Finding the Heart of the Mountain == Pits will risk devastating your fortress by HFS, and also the creeping warp is a great risk. And since this boost to magic is bound to the mountain (or forest) home it can't be transported. All these are risks and limits that offset magic, all are distinctly different from other games, and all are in the spirit of Dwarf Fortress.

[Silverionmox]

The main benefits of keeping track of ambient mystical energy of places, I think, are:
- Spellcasters squabble for certain specific places, which are otherwise unremarkable, adding a new strategic dimension to the map. This would cause settlements to arise in very odd locations, befitting a fantasy game.

- Magic users may be powerful on their home turf, but are relatively weak when in another environment. This assures a diversity of settlements and magical practices. This in turn makes it possible to randomize more freely, because it hinders the use of magic as a direct weapon of conquest. Therefore some branches of magic can have bizarre, specialized uses without ensuring their quick extinction.

- Flavour and atmosphere: symbolism is functional. Rather than just having the AI do things in a specific way because of some irrational cultural imperative, give those salmon statues and midnight blue moose totems a function.

None of these benefits necessarily require an ambient magical field associated with certain terrain. The terrain features themselves already give enough of an advantage. Consider:

Frostus is a frost mage. He lives on a glacier, and as such can gain access too all sorts of frozen magic obtained from creatures and ice. He spends so much time there that he trains up some pretty impressive frost magic - and somehow survives the ordeals. Another mage, Flamo, a fire wizard comes along to kill Frostus because he has a grudge. But Flamo is at a severe disadvantage because he's on a glacier and doesn't have access to his multiple imps and magma. He has only what he could carry with him. He also knows a whole lot about using magma and other natural fire sources, but knows nothing about how to manipulate glacier. They battle, and because Frostus has access to hordes of frozen items and creatures, not to mention his knowledge of spells which use the natural freeziness of the glacier tiles, he easily freezes Flamo and is victorious.

There is no need to add an ambient magic field effect that magnifies this even more.

That's about what I had in mind. The advantage of making a map would be to aggregate all the place-specific numbers into one, so the AI has a single number to work with and potentially thousands of smaller factors could be taken into account. Ice magic should work better on a glacier, regardless of the wizard specifically using frozen creatures etc. as components. A fortress with a predominantly blue-white colouring should be better for ice magic, but it's not practical to check it every time a magical effect would come into play, especially with longer-term effects.

The map could also be taken track of on a smaller resolution - blocks of squares rather than for every square.

Keeping it as a map would also allow lingering magic. It obscures the exact numerical benefit of the influences, so the player  It offers potential for creatures or spells to move along these lines without always recalculating the numbers: it shouldn't be used just as a strength effect on the moment of casting a spell, but to determine the waxing and waning effects of magic.

It's possible to do without of course, that depends on how intensive these numbers will be used. I think intensive use is good to give magic an integrated place in the world rather than tacking it on, and to have magic effects that vary with time and place.

[Neonivek]

I have something to add

All spells however should be under a sphere (AKA Domain), that way the game knows how to handle power sources as well as mistakes in casting!

You fail a Justice Sphere spell to make a Roach giant? Well now all your weapons are sealed!

[TrombonistAndrew]

That's about what I had in mind.

I don't think we're communicating here.

My point is that it's NOT what you have in mind. Frostus is at an advantage because he can *directly* use the glacier tiles and all the creatures spawned on them, not because he just happens to be surrounded by them.

But the idea about tying the terrain type to magic AI is good. I still don't think an ambient magic field is needed for that, either. The terrain itself is already "ambient" enough.

[Silverionmox]

It's about what game dynamic I had in mind (specialists at a disadvantage on somebody else's turf). However, that just adresses the power source; after that it's standard spellcasting.

I'd prefer a system where not the magicians, but the spells themselves are powered by the location and time. The same spell would have variable effects as the terrain (or time) changes. For example, a water elemental should become less powerful if the moats in the area are being drained. A fire elemental on a rock island in the middle of an ocean should be nothing more than a spark. Walking over a bridge would weaken it temporarily. That same fire elemental on a volcano would be a towering giant. Run to the nearest river.. Or a freeze enchantment cast over an area would be more powerful near ice statues, or near the white pet animal of the wizard (that happened to crawl into the adventurer's pocket). Animated trees pursue intruders to the edge of the forest and lose their mobility there. And so on. It's things like this I mean with strategic dimension. Spellcasters thus need to adapt their tactics to the terrain more.

(Potentially that could make magic more abstract: instead of for example heat and cool spells, there could be single change temperature spell that changed its effect according to the environment.)

[Tormy]

I have something to add

All spells however should be under a sphere (AKA Domain), that way the game knows how to handle power sources as well as mistakes in casting!

You fail a Justice Sphere spell to make a Roach giant? Well now all your weapons are sealed!

Well yeah, "sphere based spells" could work.
Also take a look at this:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_future.html

MAGIC: There are no specific decisions nailed down yet, although we've thought about it a lot. It's probably best to go for a very general system here, as in the first Armok attempt. Then the world generator and entities can decide what they want to use from what's available.

[SirHoneyBadger]

One thing I'd like to suggest, over dwarfs getting their magic from food-fests, is that instead, perhaps they could draw power from their fortresses directly.

The way I think this could work would be to allow engravers to set gems and precious metals into their engraved walls, as Runes, and then dwarf magic would draw power from those Runes, causing them to vanish as their power was used up, and the entire wall to go back to it's natural, rough state.

That keeps dwarf magic thematic to both the nature of the game, and to dwarfs, since they would gain magical power from their Dwarf Fortress, and directly from a fairly labour-intensive, "dwarfish" activity. Dwarfs are known for working hard, and working with stone, precious items, and runes, a lot more than they are for eating too much.

Maybe hobbit magic might work from overeating?

In any case, basing it off of these runes gives greater motivation for *why* dwarfs dig in the ground, why they mine for gold and gems, why they engrave their walls, etc.

By forcing them to go through the entire process of smoothing the wall, engraving (with runes, instead of pictograms), and then setting those runes with cut gems, gold, adamantium, etc, it puts a strong limit on how disruptive magic can be, while allowing you to "build up" magic over time, to be used when you need it.

Another effect of this idea would be the many effects, with each separate effect tied to a different type of gem or precious metal, therefore requiring you to hunt down, mine, and process, a specific item to use in the spell.

It also makes engravers a lot more important, but keeps "normal" engraving an important separate activity, since rune-scribing would be a 'once in a while' activity, while pictograms would still lighten dwarf moods, and detail the history of the fortress.

I still would rather see magic as being an effect mostly outside of dwarfs' direct influence, but I think the above idea might be interesting enough, and limiting enough, that magic wouldn't end up breaking the game.

[Osmosis Jones]

Stuff

This is sort of what I had in mind, coupled with an ambience/leyline sort of system. Basically, various tiles generate some sort of magical energy, which is then channelled via runic pathways to other areas. This transference would deplete the magic of an area in the process, which allows several things.

Firstly you can, with some work, set up a system that leeches all the magical energy from an area, say the area in front of your fort, where the goblins invade. As a result, their shamans are rendered useless. However, care would have to be taken with this, as completely depleting the magic of an area damages the source; magma pipes cool and harden, rivers dry up, forests die.

Meanwhile, some of that magic is directed to specialised spellcasting towers, so your rune mage (or whatever) has that additional bit of magical kick in his casting. Likewise, the mage could have a workshop that requires some magic level x to function.

Finally, you could absolutely saturate an area with magical energy, which could lead to interesting results; vermin turn into tentacle demons, spellcasters' heads explode from magical overload, and random portals to alternate planes open and close, all of which discharge the building magic to some degree. However, if the magic builds at a rate faster than these occurrences could remove it, a cataclysmic side effect occurs; maybe all the dead arise in your fortress, maybe every tree on the map turns into a treant, maybe there is just a really, really big boom.


The system could be treated as a static sort of flow, i.e. each point has some 0-7 value, that would not change unless mana was channeled (via runic engravings) in or out, or some magical effect occurred, and hence drained some of the power. I am unsure of whether or not it should be elemental specific (so a magma pipe generates fire mana, etc) or whether it should just be some generic value, thouggh I am leaning towards a generic case for simplicity.

This system allows for a wide range of effects, and can be easily coupled with others (e.g. food magic could be necessary in low magic regions as the spellcaster draws on his own reserves), yet would allow, while not exact control of magic, at least the ability to hape and guide how it occurs.