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The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)

The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)

The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)

The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)

The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)

The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)

The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)

The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)

The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)

The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)

Handlers of the Dead - House Rash (Death)

The Military Orders

[Othob Rithol]

Support the Eternal Suggestion System
The purpose of this thread is to clarify, discuss, and flesh out the suggestion to bring back the old Guild Masters and Military Orders to fulfill many of the requests for added special abilities and management controls. The Rough draft was originally posted in this thread: Council of Nobles.

Please, as a courtesy to me and others interested in this topic, read the thread, and any important links in it before attempting to change the course of discussion. For those new to the game, the information concerning the original Guild Masters can be found here on the old 2D wiki.  You can read about their job mandates here. The current job groupings in the game are found here.
What Exactly a Guild Is:

• A Guild in Dwarf Fortress is a collection of skilled dwarves that have come together to form a social and economic unit.
• These Guilds (or Houses) are organized on the local (Fortress), Kingdom, and World (All of Dwarfdom) levels.
• Most established fortresses contain chapters of at least one guild. The larger cities and capitols contain major guildhalls for all guilds present in the Kingdom. The Guilds cooperate across multiple Kingdoms to preserve the lore of their trades, as well as to promote the interests of their members.
• Guilds are organized around similar skill sets, most recognizable by a player as the color of the dwarf (White for Masons, Yellow for Carpenters).
• Guilds have three names really. We, the players, refer to the Engineers Guild for simplicity. The Dwarves refer to this type of guild as House Olon (Gear in the dwarven tongue), but each such guild also has a unique random name, generated during WorldGen.
• In a Fortress, a Guild is most clearly manifested by the existence of a dedicated noble, the Guild Master. When a Guild Forms in your fortress, the members will choose one amongst themselves to fill this role.

Why you would want more nobles:

• Many players already have difficulty handling the present nobles. But many of the nobles provide special features that help the fortress survive. The Broker makes trade far easier: you get better deals, know how much something is worth etc. The Mayor handles many complaints, giving disgruntled dwarves a place to vent and get a happy thought.
• Many players are also requesting new features like prospecting, automatic queuing of jobs, control over resources and workshops, relocating of tombs, safer sparring, and others in order to help manage a growing fort.
• Game Balance is a difficult issue, and one of the most direct ways to control this is by providing negative effects to balance any new positive ability.

What Guild Masters do:

• Everything they used to do. That is, that like the broker, mayor, manager and record keeper the player has complete control over their labor settings.
• Some Guild Masters will gain extra labors made possible by the organization. (ie Prospecting for the Miners Guild).
• Some Guild Masters will have additional settings (like the record keeper) on the Nobles Screen.
• Many Guilds involve additional controls or jobs queuing. To maintain these abilities, the Guild Master must work in his/her office.
• Guild Masters will assist in the training of guild members.
• All Guild Masters will start having meetings:
  • With Guild Members to hear complaints much like the Mayor currently does.
  • With the Mayor to petition for job mandates and/or wage increases.
  • (Optionally) With a Guild Representative to discuss Guild Business.
• When a "job mandate" is not completed, instead of resulting in a beating or jail time for a member, the GM will call a strike: All members will ignore jobs relating to the guild until such time as the strike ends in a few weeks. All members immediately get a bad thought. The GM will also revoke any benefits they provide. Non-members can still be changed over to the labors so that work will continue, but this will be inferior and (Toady willing) result is bad feelings and maybe violence.
• They alter the pattern of immigration. Small Guilds will attract more immigrants of that professional type, which may or may not already be members of the Guild. Large Guilds start attracting specialists from other Guild chapters, with a single guild skill at "Skilled" level.
• If your Guild is short of a highly skilled dwarf, perhaps the Guildmaster can import a specialist from another guild chapter.
• Workshops can be set to "Guild Only" under Workshop Preferences.
• It has been suggested that the integration of Dwarf Foreman could be linked to Guilds. Having a guild would allow you control over member's labors en masse, as well as to set labors based on skill ("only Proficient or above engravers have engraving on until I say otherwise").

What Guilds Can Form and Their Benefits: The following is a list of suggestions, and not all could, or should be implemented.
(See also Appendix A: Suggested Changes to Guild Skills)

• The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)
  Governs the professions of Miner
  
  • The GM gains a new labor, Prospecting.
  • The GMs settings screen gives you access to the mineral log, a zoom-to list of all the strikes you've made.
  • On the same screen you can set each ore type to be automatically designated for mining.
  • One suggestion is a designate option to only mine ore, gems, or a specific stone type.
• The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
  Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter and Wood Worker
  
  • Carpenter's and Bowyer's shops can specify which type of wood to use.
  • Under the GMs settings (Nobles screen) there is an option to override tree cutting designations that would cause the fortress to violate an agreement with the elves.
  • Also under the GM settings, a minimum level of wood can be set. Any repeat jobs trying to break this minimum will automatically be canceled.
  • The Guild Master can plant a few Tower Caps to start a cave forest.
• The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
  Governs the professions of Engraver, Mason and Stoneworker
  
  • The Stones screen gains a MASON selection.
  • The Manager's work cue can now select specific stone types. IE: MAKE OBSIDIAN TABLES (10).
• The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
  Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper and Ranger.
  
  • You can set max populations of a given animal type. Excess are butchered.
  • Pets can be slaughtered, but with very bad thoughts.
  • The GM could absorb or mimic the Dungeon Masters ability to tame anything.
  • The GM could authorize the trade of rare land animals.
  • The GM, if a hunter, could organize the hunters into a squad for safer hunting.
• The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
  Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith and Metal Smith.
  
  • When items are designated to melt, the GM will auto-cue the furnaces.
  • Set minimums for all bar types. Repeat jobs that attempt to break this minimum get canceled.
  • Forges will recognize items designated for decoration
  • Forges can be set and labeled to only perform certain functions (armor, weapons, stud, furniture, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
• The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
  Governs the professions of Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.
  
  • The GM could have a slight chance of extracting a gem from an unmined gem deposit, without depleting it. - OR -
  • The GM would have a slight chance of getting more than one cut gem from a rough one.
  • Jeweler's Workshops would recognize items designated for decoration.
• The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
  Governs the professions of Bone Carver, Clothier, Glass Maker, Leather Worker, Stone Crafter. Wood Crafter, Weaver, Strand Extractor, and Craftdwarf.
  
  • Adds a CRAFT selection to the Stones menu.
  • Specific Materials/Types can be chosen in Manager's Orders. IE:MAKE ASH PICCOLO(10) or MAKE TALC RING(5)
  • Craft, Cloth, and Leather Workshops recognize items designated for decoration
  • Workshops could be set and labeled to only work with certain materials (Rock, Bone, Shell, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
• The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
  Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.
  
  • The GM Auto-cues Fish cleaning Jobs
  • The GM could organize and regulate fishing in order to prevent depleting the waters.
  • The GM could authorize the trade of rare water animals.
• The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
  Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Herbalist, Lye Maker, Milker, Miller, Potash Maker, Soaper, Tanner, Thresher, Wood Burner and Farmer.
  
  • On the GMs settings you can set reserve seeds for planting.
  • On the same screen, you can set some conditional settings, IE Mill Sweet Pods over 50, Process (to bag) all Quarry Pods, or Cook all Blunt Tubers over 30.
  • The Kitchen Screen gains new controls for EAT and MILL
• The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
  Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.
  
  • Adds a MECHANICS tab to the Stones screen.
  • Can make metal mechanisms at the forge
  • Could have a new labor "tune mechanism". Upon completely such a labor on a mechanism or siege engine, the item in question would work faster or for less power.
• The Undertakers Guild - House Rash (Death) Should Probably be Replaced by a Religious Suggestion, like this one.
  Historically this is an odd guild; it triggers when you have enough dead (20+). Since no skill is involved it will have to have unique criteria. I'd like to keep it in for nostalgia.
  
  • On the GM's settings (or as a subsection of the Unit's List) there is a list of all the dead dwarves' and pets' remains (and possibly enemies/wild animals that still exist). From this list you can zoom to the fallen's location.
    
  • Assign tombs to already dead dwarves. Remains will be moved.
  • The GM will conduct a funeral service giving all attendees (those that liked or really hated the deceased) a happy thought.
• The Military Orders - Order of the Ax, Sword, Spear, Mace, Hammer or Crossbow - varied
  • The GM serves as an instructor, improving skill gain and reducing training injury.
  • One requested feature (albeit for the CotG) was for a detailed breakdown of troop readiness (if we are short of armor or weapons, how many are wounded etc)

What Guild Masters and Guilds Require:

• General Requirements: Rather than fill this thread with a list of "needs X quality bathroom", it is safe to assume Toady can handle that aspect. Needless to say they will require bedrooms, offices, dining rooms, and/or tombs. The original GMs requirements can be found on this table. Below are unique and specific requirements.
• Staged Requirements: A really good suggestion was that the GMs requirements would be staged to improve as the Guild grows. When it first forms, the GM might only need a meager office for example, but need a fine office when the guild gets larger.
• House of Rash (The Dead): This nobles obsession with death and the afterlife requires an extensive tomb, much better than its living arrangements. This Noble could also require a bed, table, chair etc in their tomb. If Toady wants to avoid making the code for such a specific requirement, instead the House Rash Master could frequently demand such objects in their tomb like current nobles do for all their rooms.
• Military Orders: These nobles would need a dedicated barracks (or an archery target for the Order of the Bow) in which to conduct their training. The Guildmaster does not need to actually spar to confer its bonuses.

How Guild Halls Work:

• Guilds have their own private designated meeting area, where they socialize amongst themselves when idle or on break.
• A very new and small Guild will be content using its Guild Master's office as meeting area.
• As the Guild grows however, it will need a dedicated Guild Hall. Failure to provide one will result in unhappy thoughts to all members, and could lead to a strike.
• Guild Halls, when possible, are designated off of Guild related buildings, such as:
• The Stoneworkers Guild uses a Statue.
• The Animal Handlers Guild uses a Cage.
• The Fisherdwarves Guild uses a Filled Pond.
• The Farmers Guild uses a Millstone.
• The Engineers Guild uses a Gear Assembly.
• The Order of the Sword, Ax, Hammer, Mace and Spear each use a Weapon Rack.
• The Order of the Crossbow uses an Archery Target.

How and When Guilds Form:

• When your population of a certain job category reaches a certain minimum in either skill or members, the workers hold a meeting, which is announced. "Your _____ workers are forming a guild chapter." Options for the requirements include:
  
  • Having a given population (5-10) at skilled level or above in any Guild skill. This would be easy to attain if you wanted it, but also prevent accidental Guild formation from immigrants. This option does not work well in professions where usually you have fewer, more skilled dwarves (ie Mechanics, Jewelers)
  • A set percentage (10%) of the Fort must have a guild profession. This has the advantage of limiting the overall number of guilds in a given fort, but could spring a guild just from one big immigrant wave.
  • A specific amount of experience (25000-50000) has to be obtained in Guild Skills. Conceptually the best choice but a veteran fort would likely end up with all of the guilds, many of which would have only one or two dwarves.
  • A specific number of job completions in Guild skills. Also an excellent choice for realism, but shares the same weaknesses as an experience total.
  • Not knowing the exact method Toady used in the previous incarnation of Guilds, it is likely the optimal solution involves a little bit of all of the above options.
• Alternately, when word reaches the Mountainhomes via the Liaison, the Guild could send a representative or an edict (again via the Liaison) offering or commanding your dwarves to form a local chapter.
• During the meeting the two dwarves with the highest average job category skill levels are selected as candidates. Among the two of them, the most popular is chosen as the local Guild Master. This dwarf becomes a "noble". All others have the option of joining the Guild.
• In the case of a succession, the above procedure is repeated by guild members to select a new Guild Master.

How Dwarves join the Guild:

• To be eligible to join a guild, dwarf must be categorized by the game as part of that job category. Players recognize this most by the color of the dwarf. To join the Woodworkers Guild, for instance, the game must title the dwarf as a carpenter, bowyer, woodcutter, or woodworker. If the categories change, the guilds will have to be modified to adjust to said changes.
• A dwarf can only be a member of one Guild at a time. If a dwarf changes profession and become eligible to join another guild, the dwarf will have to choose. Leaving a Guild will generate a negative relation with all other members. However, performing a labor of another guild without joining will generate negative relations with them. (Also see further discussion here.)
• The decision will be based on three criteria: The social relations between the dwarf and members of each Guild, the relative skill levels between the guild skill sets (with the current Guild being weighted), and personal likes/dislikes for materials as a tie-breaker.
• New immigrants and other eligible dwarves will be asked to a meeting by the GM to discuss joining.  Failing to join damages the social standing of that dwarf with all guild members. Invitational meetings will be scheduled each time the dwarf rises in a guild skill. The negative social impact is cumulative.

[Tormy]

Very nice, I am definitely supporting this, also gonna add this to the master list of suggestions. 

[Dae]

I'm all for making different, organised threads, but I'm starting to wonder if it's useful to make such specific threads. It's really amazing to put such efforts in it, but since we can't make any definitive decision, we can only brainstorm.
Once no one has really good ideas about the first topic, but someone has on another, the discussion slip to another thing, and will later come back to the first goal.
Too much organisation sometimes kills creativity. On the other hand, since Toady will come back after a 10 days break while the forum was quite productive, it'll be easier for him to have something organised.

So, thank you. And sorry for my contribution in hijacking other threads

----------------------------------------------------------
Abilities triggered :

#
# The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood) - Yellow - Ability for some members to plant trees outside and speed up the time forest grows again after deforestation. Also, perhaps, the Guild Master could plant himself some tower caps in a muddied soil once or twice a year - not many, but enough to start an underground forest.
#
# The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel) - Light Green - Jewelers would have a special job, which would be equivalent to mining, but slower, and act only on gem tiles. They would spend a high amount of time extracting gems, with a high chance of the tile not being mined out. Of course, the tile would finally disappear, but many gems would've been extracted by that time, and would be of a higher quality.
#
# The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft) - Light Blue - New option to order the construction of a craft acting as diplomatic gift. A high-quality, high-value craft that would fit some leader's tastes as much as possible. It would be considered as a masterpiece and become famous, but you wouldn't be able to sell it (or at the cost of the anger of the one he was made for?)
It would be useful later on in Diplomacy Arc.
#
# The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish) - Dark Blue - I have to prevent myself from suggesting dwarves riding war carps. Perhaps grant your dwarves more swimming skills? Make them comfortable with drinking water for a long time? Brew a new, secret alcohol from fish ?
#
# The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear) - Red - Engineers know the inner work of machines : War machines are more efficient (take less time to recharge), pumps require less power, power sources grant more power...
#
# The Military Orders - Order of the ____ (Weapon) - varied - Can efficiently lead attacks when Army Arc is more fleshed out. Victory would be more likely with them sent as Commanders, but they would risk their lifes. Perhaps they could grant tactical informations.

----------------------------------------------------------
Specific requirements :

I think some nobles can have a special treatment that would change from the usual "fine bedroom" and such.
#
# Handlers of the Dead - House Rash (Death) - no color - His tomb should be well-furnished, even better-furnished than his living quarters. In fact, I think there should be eveything that makes living quarters in his tomb, based on the belief about the afterlife. He would ask for a table, a chair, a weapon rack, etc (no bed, the tomb would be used as such) in his tomb. And buried with everything he owned, of course.
#
# The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood) - Yellow - Would ask for a personnal garden somewhere perhaps.
#
# Woodworkers/Stoneworkers/Smiths/Jewelers/Craftdwarves Guild - They could ask for a matching workshop in their quarters. Or at least, distract themselves in their spare time doing one of their guilds job, to keep in touch with the work.
#
# The Military Orders - Order of the ____ (Weapon) - varied - They would need to spar, fight or train every once in a while not to generate bad thoughts.

Also, some of the Guild Abilities should be on only if the Guild Master is happy enough. Adding to the hardships list.

Yout talked about how GM are elected the first time, but how do they change?
I propose a new selection is done, like the first one, if in X amount of time (one year, 2 years ?) if the guild isn't succesful enough. Of course, the former GM wouldn't be running for the post again.

[Dame de la Licorne]

Some additions for several guilds:

To flesh out the house Olon (the mechanics guild) GM a little more, once the GM has been chosen, perhaps a new option to forge mechanisms out of metal could appear?  And the option would be included in the current forges, but you'd need a mechanic instead of a smith to make them.

Stoneworkers guild -> The architect can now design specialized 2D & 3D buildings, mainly temples and perhaps a council chamber, as well as guildhalls.
Potential GM requirments:

• Bedroom
• Dining room
• Tomb
• Office (doubles as the guildhall in small guilds and may be part of the guildhall in large guilds)
• Guildhall (once there are enough guild members, so for example if the guild is formed when there are 10-15 stoneworkers, a guildhall would be required once there were 25-30 members)
• Something specific to each guild type

Jewelers guild -> Perhaps you would only need 3-5 dwarves for establishment. Once the GM has been selected, you would have options to make gem crafts/mugs/toys/instruments directly rather than relying on the random factor from cutting gems.  You could also create gem furniture and windows directly.  A jeweler working in the guild would also be able to cut more gems from a given raw gem.
@Dae: Although extracting more gems from a given gem tile is a good idea, it doesn't really seem to fit into the nature of a jeweler in the DF world, imo.

Now that I think about it, the requirements for the stoneworker GM would probably be the same/similar for every GM, with only the quality and triggers changing.  So when the guild is formed the GM only requires (no label) rooms, but when the separate guildhall is triggered, the rooms get upgraded to the next level, much like the sheriff gets upgraded to the CotG.  And if you reach an extremely high number of members in a guild (say 50 dwarves), the GM's requirements gets upgraded again. 
But, if a GM's requirements requires the use of another GM's skills, and you don't happen to have that GM, the requirement shows up in grey, indicating that a fort doesn't have the resources to fulfill that requirement yet.  That may cut down on some of the issues inherent here, as well as help newer players figure guild-related things out.

And another idea I've just had, kind of in the same vein, but if it's not close enough feel free to call me on it.
A priesthood.  Established in a similar way to the GMs, but dependent on the number of dwarves who worship a particular deity, and therefore no color association.  The requirements would be the same as a GM, but instead of a guildhall, they would require a temple dedicated to their particular deity.

Edit: spelling and completing a thought

[Wahnsinniger]

Lots of Nice ideas.

I would like to see Certain Guilds provide the ability to have full control over Your Encrusting/Decorating jobs, a woefully absent feature when you want to focus all your limited precious metals and gems on a small set of highly valuable items.

Example:
Tanners Guild : Control over WHAT you Sew Images on, and what the "theme" of those images are.
Jewelers Guild : Control over what type of Special Gem items get produced (Scepters, Large Gems, etc), and what specific types of goods you Encrust
Whitesmiths Guild : Control over what types of Goods you decorate with precious metals.

And which ever other groups I missed that would be appropriate.

I figure there should be a separate  Guild for the "lighter" metalworker stuff, like Metal crafts and Metal Decoration, while Blacksmithing covers production of Arms, Armor, and Furniture. Obviously these don't overwrite other suggestions made.

[Othob Rithol]

I'm all for making different, organised threads, but I'm starting to wonder if it's useful to make such specific threads. It's really amazing to put such efforts in it, but since we can't make any definitive decision, we can only brainstorm.
Once no one has really good ideas about the first topic, but someone has on another, the discussion slip to another thing, and will later come back to the first goal.
Too much organisation sometimes kills creativity. On the other hand, since Toady will come back after a 10 days break while the forum was quite productive, it'll be easier for him to have something organised.

The last bit about Toady is exactly why I want to do these kind of threads. 50% of these threads are repeats, abandoned concepts, or threads that got hijacked on the third post. There is no reason, btw, for a broad discussion to occur across 5 threads each dealing with a sub-topic. If anything in this thread inspires you, or if you think I am not respecting your creativity, make a new thread. If the ideas later converge again, the less popular thread can have its ideas merged into the more popular thread.

One thing I failed to do was to express the difference between the two threads (this and UD). In UD I added MANY ideas I thought were rubbish (and still won't say which ones). It was a brain storming thread, open to all. This topic I want to have a little more control over. Think of UD as a list scribed by The Stupid Noble (me)...and this one as a suggestion by The Stupid Noble.

So, thank you. And sorry for my contribution in hijacking other threads

Not needed. I lost my temper, I admit it. But for a reason. It was never personal, and I don't hold grudges like that. I don't even recall names (so I don't even know if you contributed).

Your contributions are excellent. I grabbed a few immediately (I was editing the Op while you were posting).

Same goes for Dame de la Licrorne.

About  Gem mining: I too see it as kind of a stretch. Jewelers are artisans not laborers. they have excellent eyes, dexterous hands, an aversion to untidiness,  and little muscle. Another way to do it (since gems in DF don't have sizes) would be for the GM to be able to get more cut gems out of a single raw gem.

About religions: It is a bit outside my chosen topic, but I agree. We should have priests and temples, and organized faith. That would also likely replace House Rash in entirety. Religions could also follow a similar pattern to Guilds as far as formation, leadership, wanting better temples etc. And most importantly they would be independent of the Guilds for membership. a whole new layer. If I were you, I'd bring it up in the old thread, because it may shape the discussion there. (and that is not me saying take it elsewhere. I just think it would really help that "layered social interaction" discussion)

Yeah, no war carps

Woodworkers/Stoneworkers/Smiths/Jewelers/Craftdwarves Guild - They could ask for a matching workshop in their quarters. Or at least, distract themselves in their spare time doing one of their guilds job, to keep in touch with the work.

One of the things different here vs the 2D GMs is that they still have their skills and labor controls. They can (at your option and by default) continue working. The normal work they do, will however, compete with any GM tasks they can do.

@Wahnsinniger: Your right, the decorations idea needs to be integrated too. As far as breaking the professional groupings as Toady made them, you can probably tell from the recent incidents, that I won't do it. I agree they need to be changed. Why is metalcrafter a metalsmith skill, but woodcrafter is not a woodworker skill? Dunno. Techhead's thread is well on the way to sorting all this out, and if Toady implements that first, then this suggestion will change to suit it.

[Dame de la Licorne]

I've thought some more, and decided architecture doesn't belong solely with the stoneworkers, as I implied in my previous post, so here's my updated architecture/guild suggestion.

Implement an architect noble (the skill is still available from the beginning) who can now design specialized 2D & 3D buildings, mainly temples and perhaps a council chamber, as well as guildhalls.
This is basically what I said for the stoneworkers guild in my previous post but now for the conditions.  In order for the architect noble position to open up, a fort would require a stoneworkers guild, woodworkers guild, and a certain number of mined out tiles.

[penguinofhonor]

and a certain number of mined out tiles.

How about a certain number of constructions?

[Mohreb el Yasim]

like the idee even if i find it a bit too "not generalist" for the jewelers if you could add set diamond in that masterwork bed would be cool

[Granite26]

Would fit DF if you only ever got X nobles/GMs out of the list.  So when the Leatherworkers guild forms, it reduces the chance of you seeing the metalcrafters guild.

Plus, it would be nice to have a lot of possible guilds without worrying about having to keep 50 guild masters happy in one fort.

[Dae]

Currently, the idea is that having a team of skilled dwarves before starting the guild (6 proficient at least, but I would set the number at 9 for my part).
This way you don't have a guild springing up just because of some migrants.

Also, I'm all for the standards of living depending on how powerful the Guild is. This way, you don't have to worry about very small ones that are created only to die a few seasons later.

Finally, I wonder if an unhappy GM would result in a beating, which wouldn't make much sense. It's more likely you won't be able to use the features the Guild enables, which would sometimes be worth of interest.

[Othob Rithol]

You'd be limited as to the overall # of guilds possible (there are less than 20) but some sort of safety built in would be good. A friend of mine is convinced the 2D guilds required a certain percentage (as in 10% or so) of your total population in the job group. So a dwarf fortress, if extremely groomed, could get ten. But assuming 30 wasted in guards (20 Guard, 10 Royal), maybe 40 peasants, 30 children, and ten or so lost on overlap you'd end up with only half left (100) to make 5 guilds in a 200 dwarf fort. Seems reasonable.

Immigration would never spring a guild IF the requirement was X dwarves at proficient, since immigrants don't have anywhere near that skill. 9 is a bit steep in my opinion, but reasonable. Maybe I can set it to a range of 5-10. Toady can always use his judgment (after all, all these mechanics we're talking about already existed, but were removed at some point).

As far as beatings. No noble can generate a beating just b/c they are unhappy. Two situations in which a GM could cause one would be a failed item mandate (make 3 ____s) just like any other noble. An unfulfilled job mandate (do X guild jobs) would result (under my idea) in a strike: loss of guild abilities and guild member labor for X days.

[Dae]

I like your strike idea, really, but I think it shouldn't happen very often. And I think it would need the Guilt to be unsuccesful to an extend, or its members to be somewhat unhappy.
Especially if a strike can go riot-like. I can't figure dwarves risking their lives just because the GM's dog died of old age recently. Even if it stays pacific, dwarves aren't paid during the strike. So we may need something in-between.

[Othob Rithol]

I don't think you follow what I am writing: The GMs "mood" or "thoughts" has nothing at all to do with when a strike occurs.

When your Baron has a glass maker beaten, it is not because he is upset that you dropped his consort and children into magma. He has the glass maker beaten because you failed to meet his MAKE CLEAR GLASS ITEMS(3) mandate and the glass maker has that skill. Or, the glass maker hauled a glass item to the trade depot, which you then traded away despite a "NO GLASS EXPORTS" mandate. All failed mandates (except impossible ones) come from the player not paying attention.

The exact same is true of a strike. They only occur when the GM has gotten a "DO GUILD JOBS(10)" mandate, and you did not make it happen. Without the strike mechanism, the game's default justice system would instead have a guild member beaten or imprisoned...which makes no sense.

edit: I put in both possible requirements: 10% of the total population AND/OR 5-10 Dwarves of Skilled or above. I chose skilled for two reasons: getting a crowd of, say jewelers, to proficient may not be possible, but getting a crowd of any profession to skilled is doable. No immigrant comes at skilled or above, so you won't get "accidental" guilds either.

[Granite26]

I lean towards total skill points.  That is, two legendary dwarves are enough, or 1 legendary and 10 skilled, or whatever.  I also like the possibility of unintentional and unwanted guilds, although I think that the player should have influence over them forming.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This gets into the guild politics we were talking about in the other thread.  Guild-busting is a good, emergent game mechanic that is only possible using certain methods of guild formation.

Back on topic:

Did anyone ever play Sid Meier's Colonization?  In it, most of the people your colonies attracted were unskilled laborers and indentured servants.  However, you had the option of paying a large sum of money to essentially 'hire' skilled people like schoolteachers and blacksmiths.<P>It is really, really annoying when your fortress only has a few highly-skilled dwarves in some essential skill, and they die.  So...  why not have a noble who lets you make requests for highly-skilled dwarves, by paying some massive signing bonus or providing some specific items they request?  This could actually be done through the trade guild dwarves...  I don't think it should be easy or available early on, but it would help reduce frustration a lot in the late game.<P>It could work a bit like this:  Once you have a dwarf from a noble representative from a particular trade guild, he provides a screen where you can see a list of 'available' highly-skilled dwarves in the skills that that guild covers.  Each of those dwarves would have a set of demands they want satisfied before they'll come to your fortress...  for example, one might want X green glass items, a gold crown, and X amount of cash.  Think of them a bit like nobles, but you have to satisfy their demands just to get them to come; you offer them the necessary objects on the guild-noble screen, and they claim them when they arrive.  (If something has happened to the objects between when you make the offer and when they arrive, of course, they're going to go ballistic.)<P>What do you think?  It would give the player another set of demands, but optional ones, with a reward of a skilled dwarf if they satisfy them.  It would also provide the player with a way to recover quickly if a skilled dwarf dies.<p>[ September 24, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]