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[LordDemon]

I'd prefer a way to store dwarf energy so it can be reliable discharged over time:

Sort of like winding a spring in a clock, that then operates the clock for a long time.

Some sort of giant spring/coil, that has a pump style entry where dwarfs can come and work, in order to store energy into the spring. The spring could be used like windmill or waterwheel, but it would run out of energy aftera  awhile, and wld produce proportionally smaller energy. Maybe dwarf would come to charge it once a month, and it would run with lower power then the dwarf operated pump. You could als charge the spring full, and trigger it with lever later.

[Techhead]

You could pump water into a reservoir and open it to power a water wheel. Temporary solutions to engineering problems!

[ChairmanPoo]

I'd like to point out that Hero of Alexandria, besides the Aelolipie, designed many devices that used compressed air for different purposes. Among them, a device that automatically opened the doors of a temple. Thus, it was not far fetched that he could have used his device for practical purposes as well.

There was just no drive to do so. He lived in a slaver economy, and the means of production were slaves, not machines. Thus, his devices remained as curiosities.

[BeyondAllPronunciation]

I don't see how either of those systems require explicit gears, just that machines run at different speeds with different power supplies (and the gearing is abstracted).

... and neither do I, for that matter. Explicit gear system has its merits, of course, but none of them are really that important. I'll list them at the end of my post for no apparent reason.

I understand that real life applications can require a lot of work to do these things, but is there a reason that handwaving at the 'mechanism' requirement is not sufficient to cover this?

Mechanisms are, in my opinion, an excelent but temporary solution to all mechanical problems. Just like bookkeeping without leaving the office or telepathic work orders. They work well for now, but eventually (even if it is in five years time) will need to get some attention.

And now some not-so-important reasons for implementing gears:
1. A whole new source of Fun for less careful dwarves.
2. Complex gear system below a retractable bridge can provide the fortress with a whole year supply of goblin goulash.
3. Should the game ever support multi-tile gears, they would look really cool in a fortress. Also you could stage a dramatic duel on top of one.

[Granite26]

Good answer, I approve

[jokermatt999]

If that "rotating walls" idea was implemented, it'd also be nice if they could be used to make massive gears. I mean, we already have "gears" as a noun for fortress names; we might as well make good use of it.

[Starver]

If that "rotating walls" idea was implemented, it'd also be nice if they could be used to make massive gears. I mean, we already have "gears" as a noun for fortress names; we might as well make good use of it.

Can't run flash on this computer, but I believe from the description that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipaf-NXqF7Q is the one I intend to be a suitably witty response regarding revolving walls and other mechanical schemings.  (And, if not, it's probably funny anyway.)

[BeyondAllPronunciation]

Can't run flash on this computer, but I believe from the description that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipaf-NXqF7Q is the one I intend to be a suitably witty response regarding revolving walls and other mechanical schemings.  (And, if not, it's probably funny anyway.)

... only in place of "piranhas" insert "carps"...

[jokermatt999]

If that "rotating walls" idea was implemented, it'd also be nice if they could be used to make massive gears. I mean, we already have "gears" as a noun for fortress names; we might as well make good use of it.

Can't run flash on this computer, but I believe from the description that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipaf-NXqF7Q is the one I intend to be a suitably witty response regarding revolving walls and other mechanical schemings.  (And, if not, it's probably funny anyway.)

Ahh, those mechanism delays can be quite...problematic, can't they?

[G-Flex]

I'd like to point out that Hero of Alexandria, besides the Aelolipie, designed many devices that used compressed air for different purposes. Among them, a device that automatically opened the doors of a temple. Thus, it was not far fetched that he could have used his device for practical purposes as well.

But the temple-door thing is really the only example I can think of, and it didn't really use it in the sense you're implying: The hot air just displaced some water through expansion, which then operated the door.

The aeolipile was not capable of useful work.

And I've said this before, but even if something was theoretically possible for someone to do at the time, that doesn't mean it should be done when trying to represent the technology of that era. For instance, even if it's theoretically possible to build a working, useful steam engine with ancient Greek technology, people like the ancient Greeks wouldn't have built it, for a variety of reasons.

I mean, theoretically you could probably build a Turing-complete binary computer using water pressure and switches. Hell, some Dwarf Fortress players have already made logic gates and made things out of them. That doesn't mean that someone from 1,000 years ago would have actually ever done it.

In short, it's easy to think of technology as obvious, or possible using ancient means, when you have the benefit of living in an era where it already exists.

[timmeh]

                 Gravity damage (ability to drop things on people for damage)
                 Moving Objects and Inertia (Giant Rolling Boulder)
                 Moving and Rotating Walls (Build your own draw bridges + atom + wall smashers with more 'realistic' damages.)
                                  Possibility of moving entire fortress segments (This is crazy)
                                  Devices to transform rotational energy into linear, and vice versa.

Want!  I can picture it now, a fortress with a gate carved into a high cliff, with multiple z-level double doors... and a pressure plate that triggers a classic Indiana Jones boulder trap.

[Lord Shonus]

And I've said this before, but even if something was theoretically possible for someone to do at the time, that doesn't mean it should be done when trying to represent the technology of that era. For instance, even if it's theoretically possible to build a working, useful steam engine with ancient Greek technology, people like the ancient Greeks wouldn't have built it, for a variety of reasons.

I mean, theoretically you could probably build a Turing-complete binary computer using water pressure and switches. Hell, some Dwarf Fortress players have already made logic gates and made things out of them. That doesn't mean that someone from 1,000 years ago would have actually ever done it.

In short, it's easy to think of technology as obvious, or possible using ancient means, when you have the benefit of living in an era where it already exists.

Of course, none of the reasons why the steam engine didn't occur to the greeks, romans, or medieval arabs actually applies to the situation. All used slaves as the primary labor source.

[Granite26]

Can we accept four things as true and move on?

A:  There's no reason limited steam power (I.E. Fixed turbines a la windmills) would not be close enough to period(in a fantasy world) to power things like doors, floodgates, elevators and traps.

B:  There are extremely valid STYLE concerns that should not be trivialized.  This debate isn't REALLY about the historical validity of this stuff, it's about people liking or not liking steampunk.

C:  No matter what we think, the Dev has already made his decision about whether to support this.  It's evident that there isn't the monolithic support in either direction that would cause him to change his mind.

D:  The Steam power code would be useful for mods.


Does anybody have anything not covered by the above? 

[gregorah]

As someone who has recently designed built an adder, just throwing in my $.02:
As far as mechanical logic goes, the most useful thing I can see being implemented is a rotation sensor, which would easily reduce the complexity, power requirements, mechanism requirements, size etc. of my adder by half or more, though I hear that point is a dead horse by now. They would need a delay, or it would be trivial to make a device that is both powered and unpowered. Overall I think this is a bad idea because it makes complex logic ridiculously easy and not at all entertaining.

Beyond that, XOR AND and OR are easily implemented with 1, 2 and 3 gear assemblies (respectively), so coding those as specialized gear assemblies/machines would be a complete waste of time.
A NOT would be useful logically, but mechanically it wouldn't make sense, only transferring power when unpowered, though if a rotation sensor was implemented it would be trivial to hack one together (especially if it worked like a pressure plate, with a settable threshold of 'ON ABOVE/BELOW').

One thing I discovered while building the adder is how much of a pain in the ass it is to build a complex machine without the ability to select a part by the cursor. Selecting from 200 identical Siltstone Gear Assemblies is a pain in the ass, particularly when the lever is on a different floor and I need to make an educated guess at which bit of the adder I'm making. Also helpful would be the ability to unlink levers or at least show linking connections.

Also having a (smaller, maybe 1-2 frame) delay between an axle turning on and a mechanism moving would be neat, just as a tweak.

Fire would be an awesome addition to the fortress, being able to light my own would be excellent, a logical extension is using the light from a fire to illuminate parts of your fortress (which would be a complete pain from a logistical standpoint, and thus needs to be implemented SOON).

A conveyor belt would be nice, though anything like a door that moves an object occupying the space when 'on' would be sufficient for me to build my own.

[Firnagzen]

Comment: I thought of something that would be useful: giving pressure plates different sizes using the umkh keys like other stuff, so that I can rig up a corridor more easily.