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[Impaler[WrG]]

Currently the game uses three sets of table to determine the value of everything, a material table, item type table and quality table and it applies the result universally across all transactions in the game.  Trade would get a huge shot in the arm if each Civilization had its own set of tables that it used to judge the value of something, each party could then assign a different value to an item (you see both when trading) and they could conduct trades that are mutual perceived to be beneficial rather then the current "Traders always shafts you" approach.  It also adds more flavor to races when you interact with them right now and will naturally steer game play in different directions when they become playable.  For example goblins wouldn't view quality as very important, a masterful item being only 2-3 times as valuable as the low quality equivalent leading them to focus on quantity.  Likewise things like Stone will be less valuable to non-dwarfs so a room with wood walls is more pleasing then a stone one so other races naturally want to build on the surface not underground.

[MMad]

I thought about this the other day, as well, along very similar lines.
I've no idea how complicated the math would be, but one challenge is presentation: in the trade window, for example, should you see the value of an item, as estimated by your skilled appraiser, or the value your appraiser believes the other guys see in the item? Or both?

I like the idea of mutually beneficial trading, since it's really how trading usually works irl. Also, it would be fun to have situations where you'd be trading glass beads for gold and stuff like that.

[Skizelo]

This kind of already happens, when they liason states that they would really like to buy shoes and offers to pay twice their value. Making it more permanent sounds sensible though.
As for the appraisal thing, I'm thinking two columns; the first value column would remain as is, showing the "true" worth. The second, ruled by the Judge of Intent skill, would show how much the traders value that item (either as a percentage, or an amended value). It could even make trading with elves easier by throwing up massive red Xs on wooden or bone items.

[penguinofhonor]

Hm, I was thinking about how different races would value different things the other day, but I forgot what I came up with.

Dwarves like drinking, so booze and mugs would permanently be slightly higher value to them. Elves are all artsy, so they would pay a little more for instruments. Goblins (you can trade with goblins now) would like weapons. Humans... uh, humans are kinda boring. I don't know what they'd like.

[Granite26]

Humans... uh, humans are kinda boring. I don't know what they'd like.

Diamond encrusted loinclothes studded with silver...

[DwarfMan69]

I think other races that live away from mountains would see stone as being more valuable, as they have no mines.

[Normandy]

Perhaps these values could somehow be aligned with spheres?

Say Race A, by religion or whatnot is aligned in the sphere 'wealth'. Race B, however, is not. Gold is a material aligned with the wealth sphere, so Race A places a higher value on gold than Race B. Say Race B is aligned in the nature sphere, they may place higher value on wood.

[Footkerchief]

I'm betting the caravan arc will transform the current trade agreements (in which demand fluctuation is random as far as I can tell) to reflect local supplies of materials and items, so different types of civilizations will probably tend to develop distinct trading preferences.

That said, there's a definite place for "innate" valuation.  Goblins finding sunshine (the drink) disgusting, etc.

[i2amroy]

Perhaps these values could somehow be aligned with spheres?

Say Race A, by religion or whatnot is aligned in the sphere 'wealth'. Race B, however, is not. Gold is a material aligned with the wealth sphere, so Race A places a higher value on gold than Race B. Say Race B is aligned in the nature sphere, they may place higher value on wood.

I like that idea. That would also help keep the entity raw short. Because if this ever happened the way it was described before, then it would have to go into the raws in order for people who have created new civilizations to edit that as well.

[Sunken]

I second this suggestion. Different buyers should value different aspects of items differently - but it's not only civilization-based, but differs case-by-case and from person to person, too. I think it would be interesting to have your trading representative try to gauge what value the prospective buyer assigns to a good, through Judge of Intent (for example). A high skill means you can readily identify those goods that should fetch an unusually high price with this particular buyer; perhaps even indicate a reasonable asking price. Negotiation still figures into what is going to be accepted, but a good idea of the other guy's limit is worth a lot in negotiations.

[Impaler[WrG]]

That is indeed logical but only useful when trading is done with at least one individual in the exchange.  All trading is currently group-2-group, the Caravan merchants are representing their home community and not their own individual tastes and preferences, they might indeed have 'shopping lists' but we would expect those lists to be reflective of their culture (with some random variations thrown in to represent supply & demand fluctuations).  And your Trader is even more constrained as he functions as a kind of direct player avatar durring trading, the valuations he puts on items should really be a kind of nutral point for your culture.

If at some point it becomes possible for individual dwarfs to take their hard-earned coin and go the Dept themselves and simply buy what ever they desire then yes I would hope that individual preferences both determine WHAT they buy and how much they are willing to pay for it.  A good haggler would try to conceal his desire for the item in question from the merchant as the merchant tries to detect it.  Merchants should 'know' the predefined cultural preferences of who they are trading with (assuming contact between the civs is common) but will have to make rolls against individual haggling skills to determine individual tastes and determine opportunities to make more profit.

[eerr]

(you can trade with goblins now)

Toady made that default?? 40d11?
how do I get 40d11 as opposed to 40d?

[Rakeela]

Here's where your dwarven preferences would come into play:  In terms of getting a high "fortress value", attracting migrants, and impressing the mountainhome. Those preferences would be based on dwarf valuations.  EDIT:  Wait, on second thought, does imported wealth even add to that stuff?

Unskilled traders would also tend to have their estimates of what the other fellow likes be biased towards their own likes.  This'd be dwarf valuations, for the most part.  That builds in a bias for unskilled appraisers to not notice trades which would be profitable.  (I believe the appraise skill should be more relevant.)

Also, traders who make deals which are terrifyingly unprofitable should get a bad thought for it, unless they were trading away imported wealth in the first place.  I'm pretty sure goblinoid loots count as 'imported' so allowing seemingly unprofitable import-export to not cause bad thoughts from shucking off loot on the traders.

[SirHoneyBadger]

You know, it might be an interesting theme if gold were much more valuable for humans, than it was to other species. So that you'd end up with these gold-crazy human kingdoms encroaching on your territory, after this metal that dwarfs consider nice and all, pretty, and occasionally even useful, but not really the ultimate thing that humans consider gold to be.

[CobaltKobold]

Perhaps these values could somehow be aligned with spheres?

Say Race A, by religion or whatnot is aligned in the sphere 'wealth'. Race B, however, is not. Gold is a material aligned with the wealth sphere, so Race A places a higher value on gold than Race B. Say Race B is aligned in the nature sphere, they may place higher value on wood.

I like that idea. That would also help keep the entity raw short. Because if this ever happened the way it was described before, then it would have to go into the raws in order for people who have created new civilizations to edit that as well.

Similarly, we already have [wood_pref], etc. And as footkerchief notes, goblins might hate sunshine generally. (I don't really like the whole good-evil simple terrain bias thing, but if that gets replaced with spheres, two thumbs up) But there're usually a few perverse indiViduals who like odd things, too, so they might take it if they know a guy.

Also, for tags we already have, decoration preferences might change their respecti'e 'alue- nondwarfs won't like the spiky things so much, is the only one I remember. Similarly, for clothing types (though this is more civ-specific who prefers what, there might still be "the latest fashion from the mountainhomes/the dwarfs/the elfs")