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Author Topic: Underground Diversity  (Read 136125 times)

Wahnsinniger

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2008, 06:14:31 pm »

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the issue about how simple it was to just drop a shaft straight from the surface to the bottom of the map. One simple suggestion is the introduction of "Permanent Rock".

Certain levels could have sections of entirely unminable rock. You may try to drop a shaft all the way to the bottom, but 6 layers down you hit permanent rock, and you'll have to mine horizontally to try to find the edge before you can mine further. Combined with further Underground features, you increase the odds of coming across something hostile if you have to mine horizontally on a level a bit before you can sink down further.

Obviously they would need to be moderately sized sections so as to not block a player's progress entirely. Furthermore, the rock would actually be removable, whereby you can undermine it and collapse the permanent section, smashing it to rubble. Also, imagine a 3D permanent section which has only a small entrance to the interior, housing some sort of special thing. (Long lost deity or other monster? Magical inexhaustable magma-spewer which had been intentionally sealed in ages past?)

(I copied this from my new topic per suggestion)

Regarding the chasm idea. Playing adventurer I was quite disappointed to find that I couldn't go down the chasm at all. I think the chasm should have ramps for most levels so that you can traverse most of it, with the occasional bridge across it out of virgin rock. Large chasms should essentially be a small world of its own with various tribes living on the side of it every few levels. (Which it mirrors slightly already)
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Othob Rithol

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2008, 06:20:41 pm »

hehe we were editing simultaneously...I removed my copy of your OP to save space.

I like the natural ramps/bridges on the chasm....but I think they are not there now to prevent 100% of that population from making a beeline for your dwarves....maybe not.

I see the chasm as potentially the big unifying element of the underground world...sort of an interlinking highway between the caverns, rivers, ant hills, ratmen warrens, etc etc

edit: Found a good entry in wikipedia about an endolithic bacteria that metabolizes iron and sulfur in pyrite to produce sulfuric acid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidithiobacillus
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 09:32:06 am by Othob Rithol »
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Wahnsinniger

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2008, 06:59:00 pm »

Yeah, there likely shouldn't be a direct stairway access from the surface to the bottom of the chasm (otherwise what kept them from rushing up in ages past). They do need to be connected more than now though.

I agree that the larger chasms should be teeming with underground life and occasional mini-civilizations. Add in advanced diplomacy, and suddenly your early fortress is negotiating with the Ratmen tribe 8 levels beneath the surface to launch a combined attack on the small Antmen colony further down.

Underground politics+war = awesome.


Speaking of diplomacy, once mini-civilizations are kept track of and can be interacted with, things like small traces of feudalism can be added. Imagine your fortress of 100 dwarves has subjugated/vassalized several small tribes underground and now its time to launch an all out assault on the nearby elves (man I hate elves So MUCH, but only in DF). And if your 'loyal subjects' don't join you in the glorious slaughter, they'll be next.
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ivegotgoodabs

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2008, 07:16:25 pm »

Ice caves would rule.

So would underwater caves.
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Sprout

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2008, 11:56:22 am »

Chasms?!?! We don't have no stinking chasms! We don't need no stinking CHASMS!


All memes aside..


Non-Bottomless Chasms

Some chasms should have a bottom- this could tie into the 'digging deeper reveals more map idea', with the bottom only being accessable with labourous digging.

At the bottom, there could be many things, such as:

A group of demonic beasties that devour anything in sight.
A tribe of some sort of creature, maybe something already present in chasms, maybe not.
Some sort of weird magic biome with pools that enchant the victim in different ways, ("Oh Urist, I'm about to drink from this pool!" *drinks* Urist UristUrist has become a cow. Urist CowLover has adopted Urist UristUrist") to giant mushrooms, all sorts of weird creatures, maybe even a 'Elder Mana Elemental' Megabeast that created this weird cavern in the first place.

Of course, these are only some of the possibilities.

I'd also like to see a little more flair in the current chasms, such as Megabeast caves being built into the side with the entrance only being accessable by an abandoned fortress which built a rickety bridge across, and which is now infested with GCS and !!fire imp bone crowns!!.
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Tamren

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2008, 05:16:12 pm »

Great thread! I had an idea for a kind of underground tree quite a while ago, might as well repost it here. The original idea was to give us true underground forests complete with "trees".

Sorry about the wall of text yet again, but there is too much detail for cliffs notes.

To start with, the system we use for wood is almost certainly going to change. It just doesn't make sense to get only one log from each tree, and to make only 1 or a handful of items for each log. So eventually the yield of wood we get from trees and tower caps will be changed to reflect their size.  Tower caps are mushrooms, so when you cut down the mushroom the only part you could probably use as wood is the stalk. The stalk is very thick but not very long compared to surface trees. This means you wouldn't be able to use them to make something like a trebuchet arm which must be one piece.

So what I thought of was a mushroom that takes the shape of a tree but it works far different. The more I thought about it the more complicated it got and it became more than just a source of wood. For simplicity I'll just refer to it as a "pillar mushroom". At the start of their life the mushroom looks much like other mushrooms with a cap and a stem, one thing that sets them apart is that the stem is long and thin and always grows perfectly upright. The mushroom will continue to grow taller and thicker until its cap reaches the ceiling.

At this point the mushroom enters the second stage of its lifecycle. The cap splits and releases pods of seed. Technically these are spores but they are of such size that it makes more sense to call them seeds. Anyway, the seeds are held in place by a mesh of plant material which is sort of like orange pith. (the white stuff that holds the insides together) Not all of the seed pods are mature and only mature pods separate from the pith. So when the the cap first splits some of the immature pods hang down from the top on strands of pith. It ends up looking a lot like a coconut tree.

Most of the pods fall to the ground and burst. These seeds grow into a symbiotic form of fungi that hangs around with the pillar mushrooms. The takes the form of these large barbed nets of plant material. They spread around in a massive carpet around the base of the pillar. While this happens the pillar grows until it touches the ceiling and starts to grow "branches" and "roots". Think of a double ended tree growing roots into the ceiling and ground. The branches drill up through the rock and fragment it. The roots below spread out and widen the base of the pillar to anchor it. The rock that drops to the ground is slowly constricted and pulverized into sand by the net shaped fungi. After many years what you end up with is a massive underground tree boring its way into the ceiling, creating a pile of gravel around its roots and a large dome shaped cavern that grows ever higher.

Sometime around this point the tree enters its third stage. Those immature seeds pods mentioned before have changed into much larger pods that contain smaller spores. Eventually these pods will burst and spread massive clouds of spores over the surrounding area. Since there are few immature pods per pillar to begin with and few of those pods have survived the rock shower over the years, pillar mushrooms spread very slowly and forests rarely reach large numbers. At this point the seeds can be harvested and planted in an organized manner by dwarf farmers thereby increasing the yield.

When the third stage begins, the stalk of the mushroom which has previously only grown thicker will begin to grow taller again. This pushes the branches ever higher and excavates ever more rock. Eventually a single mushroom will bore a mini chasm into the rock above it. In the rare cases where multiple pillars grow close together, the tallest and oldest of the pillars will slow their growth to allow the younger trees to catch up.

Much much later, and only if a forest of mushrooms has sprung up will the fourth stage begin. All of the mature pillar mushrooms in the forest will begin to slow their growth. While new mushrooms will spring up all the time, none of them will ever exceed a certain size. At this point there will usually be a hundred or so mature and immature mushrooms of various sizes, especially around the edges of the growing cavern. The cavern itself is going to quite big at this point, supported by ten or so of the massive mature pillars. These pillars enter into a final race with each other. Each one begins to slowly petrify from the inside out. While this happens these pillars continues to grow until they fully turn to stone.

The pillar that grows the tallest invariably digs a dome into the ceiling of the cavern that is higher than any other point. This one pillar will eventually be surrounded by a crown of stalactites and stalagmites that form around the edges of the dome.

---
So imagine, if you can, a giant underground cavern bigger than most sports stadiums. A cavern of this size is a very rare find, and within it is a forest of pillar mushrooms of all sizes. About 10 or so titanic pillars of petrified wood hold up the ceiling high above. Giant cave spiders spin colossal webs between them. To one side a pillar has broken through into an underground river and a waterfall splashes down from the ceiling in a ring shape. The base of that pillar rises from a lake which empties into multiple rivers that disappear through tunnels in all directions.

At this point we could introduce all of the things you guys have been talking about. Imagine an underground civ making its home in one of these forests. Or a rock titan eating the petrified trees. Sound like fun?
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Belteshazzar

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2008, 06:03:26 pm »

I don't like the idea of impenetrable stone (these dwarves are hardcore enough to mine adamatine whats going to stop them!) However, perhaps some stones could be sturdier than others. I have fantasized about the addition of material and landscape damage added into a game and perhaps giving hardier materials damage resistance would (mining would be attacking the stone until it 'dies') create the effect of difficulty in mining.
 
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zagibu

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2008, 06:47:59 pm »

Yeah, that, and pick wear. It just doesn't make sense to mine granite with a copper pick. I think each stone should have a toughness value which not only makes mining slower, but also increases pick wear.

Also, Tamren, your pillar mushroom sounded cool, at least what's described in the first half of your post, after which I've lost patience.
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Tamren

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2008, 06:50:28 pm »

Toady likes detail so I usually put as much detail in as possible. Anyhow just skip the stuff on how it works and read the part about what we could do with such things at the bottom.
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zagibu

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2008, 07:19:03 pm »

Normally, I wouldn't bother, but then I've noticed your signature, and it is rare to encounter people who understand objectivity, or "truth" as the impossible thing it is, so I reconsidered, and I must say, an underground cavern supported by petrified wood pillars and full of cave spiders sounds nice.

This has probably already been mentioned, but it just struck me that DF lacks underground phosphorescent plants that can be harvested and used as light sources.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2008, 07:28:37 pm »

Normally, I wouldn't bother, but then I've noticed your signature, and it is rare to encounter people who understand objectivity, or "truth" as the impossible thing it is, so I reconsidered, and I must say, an underground cavern supported by petrified wood pillars and full of cave spiders sounds nice.

So if I had a cool signature then people would like my suggestions more?
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zagibu

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #116 on: August 17, 2008, 08:14:12 pm »

So if I had a cool signature then people would like my suggestions more?

Absolutely. I suggest you fabricate one immediately.
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Tamren

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #117 on: August 17, 2008, 08:55:24 pm »

Exactly. "I am insane" can just as well mean "everyone is blind but ME". Also sigs are great! And you can also mod the little blurb under your avatar if you have one as well. Afaik were all bay watchers except Toady and Threetoe
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Othob Rithol

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #118 on: August 18, 2008, 09:40:50 am »

@zagibu:Glowing shrooms for light sources is already in: saw it in another thread (maybe your top 10)

@PoH: Good choice

@Tamren: Hard Read, but excellent detail. I like your vision of a 3D tower cap forest w/spider webs etc. That is exactly the kind of thing we need.

@Everyone. Out of town until Friday. Going to the Grand Parents. Inner-net? Was Innernet?

Cookie to anyone that can tell me what my name means. My sig has clues.

Mephansteras

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Re: Top10 Underground Diversity Discussion
« Reply #119 on: August 18, 2008, 10:06:59 am »

Essentially "Stupid Noble" in dwarven. :)

I really like the giant mushroom cavern idea, that would be really impressive to find.
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