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[Fishersalwaysdie]

Remember when Indians knocked on that guys door leaving a goat head on the doorstep, stealing his babies and throwing a constrictor snake on his wife's neck  to stop her for crying out for help?

I don't remember that part.

[Greiger]

I also think that goblins and kobolds and such shouldn't be always evil, but this is dwarf fortress.  It would make perfect sense that they became enemies during their 'evolution' when they all had to compete for cave space. Thus dwarven propaganda indicates them as pure evil.

It would make perfect sense for them to actually be neutral to elves or humans if we ever get a human town or elven forest mode.

Though I don't care much for goblins I kinda like kobolds, the super low level adventurer fodder.  They are weak and virtually harmless. Usually if I catch one in an elephant/hippo cage trap I release it outside.  Sorta like when you find a lizard in yer house.

[Kagus]

I love goblins.  The li'l green bastards can always bring a smile to my face...

Most of the games that I've played that had goblins in them, had goblins that I liked.  I always seem to like the little races for some reason, and goblins strike me as the most lovable.  Well, lovable-ish.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

[SELECT_SYMBOL:ALL:EVIL]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:DOMESTIC]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:FLOWERY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:HOLY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:PEACE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:GOOD]
[BABYSNATCHER]
[EVIL]
[PERSONALITY:ANGER:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
[PERSONALITY:CHEERFULNESS:0:40:90]
[PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
[PERSONALITY:MODESTY:0:40:90]
[PERSONALITY:SYMPATHY:0:25:50]

Sounds evil, no?

[Dark]

Tis true, the raw data put forth by Toady cannot be denied except in extreme cases.

[I3erent]

I give you goblin mountain in the spirit of this thread...

Goblin Mountain

[Armok]

quote:Originally posted by Dark:
<STRONG>Tis true, the raw data put forth by Toady cannot be denied except in extreme cases.</STRONG>

[SHOUTS ANGRILY IN FACE] THIS IS EXTREME CASES!  :mad: [/SHOUTS ANGRILY IN FACE]

[Lyrax]

This thread needs more real Goblins!

Now that's out, I must say the ability to make peace with the goblins would be nice.  Perhaps they would demand we make war on the Elves?  Such is the price of friendship, and it is with a heavy heart that I pay it.

Ok, so it's not really that heavy.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

I love that comic, but I hate that no goblin or orc is a horrible raiding murderer...
I guess it's not politically correct or something.

And Armok, why don't you love kobolds for being evil, murderous bastards. Not fluffy misunderstood minority or something...

I mean, you are a god of blood, aren't you now?

[Jonathan S. Fox]

quote:Originally posted by Fishersalwaysdie:
<STRONG>I love that comic, but I hate that no goblin or orc is a horrible raiding murderer...
I guess it's not politically correct or something.</STRONG>

Oh, I don't know about that... the heroes are awful nice, but that one-winged goblin chieftess (her clan's the one that captured Dies Horribly) plans to build a massive multi-clan goblin army to go to war against orcs, humans, elves, gnomes... everyone who is a goblin must serve her, and everyone who isn't must die.

[Dreamer]

I think that the evil races were about as neutral as everyone else.  They were wronged at one point or another by one of the other races (Whether they were or not has been forgotten), and they passed the knowledge to their children, and as this was passed through the generations, a seething hatred eventually began to encompass everything.

Their once simple grudge eventually evolved into something similar to the belief that they were wronged, and that they must destroy those who wronged them.  This makes them into the bitter, hateful things that they are seen as, though they think their task is true and righteous.

No one thinks that what they do is wrong, and I don't believe that the goblins, orcs, and kobolds would be any different.  They are simply fed and raised with the knowledge that they hate something, and that they must do whatever they can to destroy it.  The same thing happens quite often even amongst us humans, and for things as simple as nationality and skin tone.

(This also means that there can be those who separate from their brethren and are relatively friendly, though I imagine these would be rare in a world where no stray thought is tolerated and everyone would kill them just for being what they are.)

Most of the time, however, you'll see the "evil" races as natural (Or unnatural) born psychopaths.  It's simple, but it does make for a convenient enemy, especially when you don't want to worry about whether what you're killing might just be some poor ol' sap that would rather be shoving lemons into his eyes.  It takes a lot of the bite out of war.

Not that this is a bad thing: I have to say, that for such a bloody game, Dwarf Fortress does spare us the decision of whether or not to kill something.  So while I'm all for other races having complex morals and alignments, I understand the need for something you can shoot and not bother asking questions.  Since Dwarven society is so complex, you need something you can beat up without feeling bad about it.  Stress relief, and all.

Hm.  It seems I rather rambled on a bit about that.  Sorry.

Interesting website, though.

[ March 16, 2008: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

[Jonathan S. Fox]

quote:Originally posted by Dreamer:
<STRONG>Not that this is a bad thing: I have to say, that for such a bloody game, Dwarf Fortress does spare us the decision of whether or not to kill something.  So while I'm all for other races having complex morals and alignments, I understand the need for something you can shoot and not bother asking questions.  Since Dwarven society is so complex, you need something you can beat up without feeling bad about it.  Stress relief, and all.</STRONG>

In Escape Velocity: Nova, for the first time, you could join a pirate faction and have them portrayed positively from their own point of view. They weren't a pure chaos everybody hates them faction anymore, they were their own faction with a political agenda and if you joined them, you wouldn't attack your own ships.

In testing they found that people wanted at least *somebody* they could attack randomly, and after 9/11, some people wanted to kill terrorists in the game. They ended up creating mindless marauders that would just attack certain sectors indiscriminately and had no story development to them, just something to spice things up with a random bad guy every once in awhile, somebody who wasn't attached to any faction, somebody you could just blow up for fun.

For all the complexities of wars where you could join either side and see the same story from five different angles, ultimately they still needed something you could just kill.

[Forumsdwarf]

In the LotR movies orcs were constructed, thus their depiction as evil isn't racism but hoplophobia.

Maybe the book was different?

[Erebus]

quote:Originally posted by Forumsdwarf:
<STRONG>Maybe the book was different?</STRONG>

Yes. Orcs were people just like humans, elves and dwarves. Tolkien actually spent quite a lot of effort worrying about the theological implications of a race so inherently evil that the good guys can kill them indiscriminately. He never really came up with anything satisfactory, though.

[Forumsdwarf]

Talk about a failure of imagination.

"Orcs bear the reincarnated souls of the violently wicked."

Problem solved, and they'd even have free will.  In fantasy lit. your gods can do stuff like that.