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[Puzzlemaker]

http://goblindefensefund.org/

I can't decide if it's a joke or it's serious.  Although, it does raise some valid points; goblins in folklore started out as more tricksters then rat-demon-things.  Also, Hob-Goblins where originally the nicer variant of goblin.  Tolkien's books started the whole hob-goblins are stronger then normal goblins thing.

[Will]

viral marketing maybe?

[Armok]

I'm not really much for goblins, but I do get angerd at the unjustified hard-coding of evil in any race.

I take this dead serious, I myself know how angry I get when kobolds are insulted.
I would not recommend insulting kobolds in my hearing range.

Really, this is the ONLY major flaw of DF, if Toady stops this cliché specieism there would be noting but time between this game and true perfection. (I quite fancy the interface and graphics)

some points:
- goblins have the most advanced tech after dwarves, so they are not technologically barbarians.
- dwarves murder kittens and make mittens out of them, and I need only say "dwarven justice"...
- "High" elves means something completely different in this game, weee!
- Humans... I just read this article about the Vietnam war... also, the inventors of interrogation, nukes, chemical warfare, taxes, drugs... you get the idea. I HATE humans, truly, one of my major goal in existence is to rid myself of all things human!

Kobolds are noble creatures, originally known for warning peaple about caveins, they do not pollute, they do not believe in silly gods, they do not wage large-scale war, they are damn much better than any other race.
and they are damn cute.
they might not have the same concept of ownership that many have, just like the Indians in north America originally had no concept of owning lands, and the Indians indeed was accused for stealing... who today would dare call them filthy thieves? no one but a very brave racist jackass!

Down whit the humans! Down whit the oppressors! Viva la revolution! Viva la revolution! Viva la revolution!

[Necro]

Kobolds.. well, they do steal from me and turn up on my lawn to take pot shots at my dwarves..

I am all for the site! In fact, I visited it before and I'm glad to see it improving.

[Bricktop]

Armok, while I understand what you are saying in your post, you are falling foul of the very thing you are trying to protest against. You are applying your idea's of evil to races in dwarf fortress, while remaining to blind to their redeeming qualities (the the case of elves, humans and dwarves) while insisting that the goblins and kobolds are good while refusing to acknowledge any evidence that goes against your view.

quote:- goblins have the most advanced tech after dwarves, so they are not technologically barbarians.

So technological achievement is the only thing that separates good from evil? What about the bit where they steal children, worship evil forces and wage indiscriminate war on all others?

quote:- dwarves murder kittens and make mittens out of them, and I need only say "dwarven justice"...

In what way does butchering kittens make the dwarves evil? While we think of cats as pets, and pets alone, to the dwarves they could simply be yet another type of livestock.

quote:- Humans... I just read this article about the Vietnam war... also, the inventors of interrogation, nukes, chemical warfare, taxes, drugs... you get the idea. I HATE humans, truly, one of my major goal in existence is to rid myself of all things human!

In the case of humans- while it may be true that they don't do any true good in the DF world just now, they don't do any true evil either. This is shown from the fact that you need to turn to RL events to try and prove your point.

[JT]

quote:Originally posted by Puzzlemaker:
<STRONG>http://goblindefensefund.org/

I can't decide if it's a joke or it's serious.  Although, it does raise some valid points; goblins in folklore started out as more tricksters then rat-demon-things.  Also, Hob-Goblins where originally the nicer variant of goblin.  Tolkien's books started the whole hob-goblins are stronger then normal goblins thing.</STRONG>

In Tolkien's works, goblins, orcs, and their ilk were all the same.  The Uruk-hai were a special and unnatural breed of orc.  The only diverse species was the "troll", of which there were several kinds -- ones that would turn to stone in sunlight, ones that could handle it just fine.  Of course, the site is technically accurate in that in folklore, elves, dryads, goblins, trolls, and just about everything else were all the same thing: mystical things used as the stuff of legends and/or to scare children.

I think the problem here is that people are complaining about the definition of "evil" and mistaking that definition for the Christian evil.  In my books, something that is evil is something which emphasises self-empowerment and survival of the fittest (which is probably why the Christians think Darwin is evil, ignoring the whole obstinacy thing, now that I think about it).  Many species on Earth itself are unequivocally evil under that definition -- wolves and cats, for instance -- because they are simply not motivated by the concerns of others, only by themselves and their desire for social or personal power.

Personally I think goblinoids fall under the same category -- they are "evil" in that their society is based on strength and personal gain without regard for others.  They do not deliberately cause pain to others just for the sake of it, although they do not hesitate to cause pain to others if it is for their benefit (or for their reputation, like human trophy-buck hunters).

[Misterstone]

I have to agree with Armok here... I mean, whenever I visit a Goblin fortress, they seem to be getting along with each other nicely.  The place is nice and well-swept, their kids are all frolicking around and having fun, they look cute in their polished iron masks... it makes one of my fortresses look like a Utopia.

[Lightning4]

Until, of course, you notice a rotting dwarf head protruding from a nearby spike.

[Misterstone]

quote:Originally posted by Lightning4:
<STRONG>Until, of course, you notice a rotting dwarf head protruding from a nearby spike.</STRONG>

No, even with that it makes one of my fortresses look like a Utopia.  Trust me, you don't want to know.

[Keiseth]

quote:Originally posted by Armok:
<STRONG>I'm not really much for goblins, but I do get angerd at the unjustified hard-coding of evil in any race.

...

Kobolds are noble creatures, originally known for warning peaple about caveins, they do not pollute, they do not believe in silly gods, they do not wage large-scale war, they are damn much better than any other race.
and they are damn cute.</STRONG>

What kind of sissy flower-dancing tree-hugging hippie Kobolds did your world generate?

My dwarves could have been seen as the black sheep of dwarven society. They only ate plants and only drank booze, there was no hunting and no butchering. We sold KITTENS. A bloody dwarven pet-shop outpost. You're defending the creatures that regularly popped in for a cup of joe and some stabs you in the ribs!

Never even got a goblin at that fort. I suspect the disturbing number of puppies and kittens sickened them.

Edit: Spelling, grammar. No sleep. Anything left I don't care about. =p

[ March 13, 2008: Message edited by: Keiseth ]

[Kagus]

Love me.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Heheheh, I once wrote a rather lengthy academic paper on the portrayal of Orcs in games as a safe archetypal evil barbarian race in place of traditional racial stereotypes to the same effect. And signed the petition.

[valcon]

in dwarf fortress, goblins aren't evil, and dwarves aren't good, they're just enemies.  that's all.

[I3erent]

A response from our glorious programmer??? Toady Your thoughts?

[Fedor]

Where does morality in DF lie?  I think the behavior of each race after the army arc is in place and polished up will tell us a lot.  If goblins continue to attack my fortresses unprovoked, then they are clearly "evil" insofar as DF comprehends the term, and I will cheerfully slap them around if able.  Killing my dwarves is a no-no.

Ditto kobolds.  You want my pretty things, dog-men?  Then make me a fair offer!

Humans and elves who trade with me (and let me chop down a reasonable number of trees) are "good" - they get treated nicely and I might even send my army out to help defend them if threatened.  My only objection to elves is that they consider tower-caps as "trees".  If I grew it, it's mine to chop down!