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Author Topic: Goblins Towers in DF 50.  (Read 2360 times)

Nilsou

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Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« on: February 12, 2024, 06:43:17 pm »

Hello everyone,

I have several experiences in modding civs with DF42 and lower and I try to replicate some of my knowledge with the steam version and the new system of mod.

My current goal is to make a darker world at world gen, with a lot of towers from different civilisations, and more specifically : Goblins Tower.

And so far, I have failed...

My previous discoveries on DF42 was that Towers are linked to secrets of life and death (obviously) and that the quests for those secrets are triggered by the aging of the character. So I have tried to replicate the maxage trick that makes elves and goblins mortal and so make them fear for death. (with a [MAXAGE:400:600]).
The second trick is to add Death sphere to those civs, which also work well in DF42.

And it works, partially : in History I see well more necromant towers, from elves, from humans and also from Dwarf as I have added the Death sphere to them too.
But inexplicably : no Goblins tower, on only one in a very long time.

After history inspection I see that there is a pretty consistent number of Goblins Necromancer, but they appear to not build any tower, they just rule standard goblins pits or have some position in it.

I have tried several things like reducing other civs to have more goblins (and adding more demons), or adding scholarship and all the stuff to create Books in Goblins pits (with the idea that with books, the necromancer’s secrets will spread quicker), but at this point nothing had work : in multiple world generation : always a solid number of goblins necromancers (not more than humans or dwarves for unknown reasons) but no Goblins Towers  :-\

I take any idea to guide me :) 

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aSpatula66

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2024, 01:20:10 pm »

Maybe try adding deities to goblins? They don't have any by default.
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Eric Blank

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2024, 02:03:49 pm »

It sounds more like, they have no impetus to leave. In human and dwarven civs, people that don't age get chased out by suspicious villagers, and after a while will go found a camp and then construct a tower. It sounds like goblin civs, even though you made them mortal, aren't kicking anyone out, so they never go build a tower. I don't know what that's controlled by, either.
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Nilsou

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2024, 06:02:20 am »

Maybe try adding deities to goblins? They don't have any by default.
By "deities" you mean "Sphere" ?
If yes, I have already added some sphere, notably death, to Goblins, with a Pantheon, and to the elves too.

It is necessary to have goblin or elves necromancer but this doesn't seem to modify the number of towers. There are no towers from Goblins and very very low number of tower from elves. In contrast Dwarves and Human made a lot of tower even with lower total population.

Or is it possible to add default deities (not sphere, named deities) to a civs before the world gen ?  :-\
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Nilsou

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2024, 06:20:45 am »

It sounds more like, they have no impetus to leave. In human and dwarven civs, people that don't age get chased out by suspicious villagers, and after a while will go found a camp and then construct a tower. It sounds like goblin civs, even though you made them mortal, aren't kicking anyone out, so they never go build a tower. I don't know what that's controlled by, either.
I think this is a point, I will check this later in the history.

I guess there is two possibilities :
- The Maxage is too large and there is no suspicion of no aging in the time covered by my worldgen.
- The EVIL tag prevent the expulsion of the necromancer

-> And indeed : maybe it's simply hardcoded ...
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aSpatula66

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2024, 08:14:59 am »

No I mean goblins don't have a religion by default, elves do but it's forces of nature which I'm pretty sure can grant secrets if they have viable spheres. You would have to give goblins [RELIGION:PANTHEON]. There's also the fact that goblins are fine with murder and so maybe that results in them not caring about people seeming not to age.
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Nilsou

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2024, 09:15:26 am »

Yes, I have granted religion:pantheon to the goblins. It does not change the problem.

I guess it could be related to the fact that they are fine with murder, or that they are EVIL.
Maybe it is time for Dwarven Science !

I will test the MAXAGE hypothesis, the EVIL hypothesis and the murder related hypothesis.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2024, 09:18:18 am by Nilsou »
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Nilsou

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2024, 03:52:19 pm »

Ok, I have made several experiments.

What I have done :

I have played with :

- SPHERE (let pantheon alone or precise the death sphere)
- SPHERE_ALIGNMENT (to favourite more precisely one sphere or another among the population)
- Wanderer, mercenary, scouts (to let the creatures explore more freely)
- All the creations of books stuff (jobs, reaction, etc.) : to let the creatures have material to write books (because this is also how the secret of life and death spread in the world)
- The « VALUE » : to let the creatures build libraries (knowledge >= 15) and because those effects are not well known ... perhaps one of those lead to be anxious for life and to get the goal to seek immortality.
- The BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS and BUILDS_OUTDOOR_WALL to let the creatures build other things, who knows, maybe there is a link.
- The personality traits at creature_standard level (for the same reason as the VALUE)

I have also played randomly with the evil tag in creatures. But beware : the EVIL and the VALUE, when modified on goblins, sometimes make the game crash at worldgen or goblins not appear at all. I guess that Goblins respecting the law or not EVIL causes the beginning of a universe hole ^^

After all of this, I didn't manage to have a lot of goblins tower but I got some data :


- Some Goblins Tower (dans some other creature tower, like amphibian man, etc.) appears sometime, and randomly there is a significant number, but this is not convincing and the reason is not clear.
At least it means that this is not a hard wall, it's some smooth result of the dynamic of the game.

I have hypothesised that maybe goblins die a lot in combat or maybe there is not a lot of Goblins that seek the secret for life and death at the beginning. So I decided that it is time for Dwarven science and I made some stats with a python script running on the xml region file.

My surprising results so far on this modded game (click on the image for full size) :



So, as you can observe, some of my hypothesis are wrong. There is a LOT of Goblins that seeks immortality in my Game (1331 vs 609 for Human and 246 for Dwarves).
There is also, surprisingly, not a lot in Goblins, the rate of loss is bigger than Dwarves but only slightly than Human. Thought, those death (character death brutally or characters that can't find the secret) there is still a lot of characters involved (390 for Goblins, vs 235 for humans).

Wa can also see with the means of death that, apart for the unmodded Dwarves, that live longer, the Elves, Goblins and Human that share the same MAXAGE (the human MAXAGE) die at the same age in mean. Goblins are slightly lower (86 vs 89 for human) so I guess that their brutal way of life change this here, but it is not the large effect that I imagined.

Finally, Necromant die too (necromant death are also included in the immortality death) and after those death Goblins still have a lot of necromant alive. Strangely enough, Goblins resist better to the necromant life than their counterpart except Human. Maybe there is a hint here ?

Finally, the Towers created : here the elves are very efficient (for no obvious reason, they are mainly unmodder apart for the MAXAGE and RELIGION:PANTHEON), human have a good number of towers but are not very efficient to create those, and Dwarves are good.

Goblins have 0 tower in this game.

The mystery remains, but the data are here ^^






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Nilsou

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2024, 02:04:51 pm »

More data after digging a bit :

It seems that reality is simpler : the Game just act strangely when naming the Tower.
Firstly, Necromancer government seems to be multicultural. When you look at the details of a necromancer civs, there is a lot of interaction with other necromancer race.

Let’s look at the « members » of the dwarf necromancer site government « The Plaits of Trading » created by the Dwarf Necromancer « Zon Willfulcloisters » :

Quote
the human necromancer Guki Orbsmurdered
the goblin necromancer Nguslu Crewterrors
the goblin Utes Cruelstaff
the elf Avafi Waxuttered
the goblin Dang Scorpiontrumpets
the human Innu Feedfissure
the human Ero Foundwaned
the dwarf Meng Inkinsight
the elf Gica Clutchvipers
the dwarf Ilral Earthchasms the Tenebrous Frill of Paint
the dwarf Kikrost Truthfulattic the Crystalline Kindnesses of Pulling
the elf Aweme Sablequeen
the dwarf necromancer Zon Willfulcloisters
the goblin necromancer Mato Terrorring
the goblin Ngokang Cruelhush
the goblin Smunstu Namedfiends
the goblin Amxu Boltdemons
the human Bikda Fairsheen
the dwarf Goden Womenirons
the goblin Nako Hatedcertain the Ochre Blade of Dips
the goblin Bosa Liecrept
the dwarf Sibrek Craftslands the Oily Ripper of Beans
the elf Rofa Dentedwings the Permanent Violator of Helms
the dwarf Ilral Weaknessgold the Waning Knots
the human Len Knowntyphoons
the elf Nemo Wintercyclone the South Price
the goblin necromancer Smunstu Kingdomsseduced
the elf Fima Vipermobs
the human Ala Sloshedmop the Geared Banner of Berries
the human Amak Praisebutter
the goblin Aslot Obscuremonstrous
the goblin Ozud Hatepartners
the dwarf Udil Wisdomspears
the dwarf Litast Cudgelstruck the Drab Flag
the human Oku Moppedfill the Flaxen Bolts of Glaze
the human Kost Revereivy
the dwarf Ingish Atticdawned
the goblin Ngoso Profanedents
the goblin Strodno Hatedfortune
the dwarf Zasit Tancrypts
the human Teme Spraystrays
the dwarf Obok Oilclasped
the elf Queca Soundblossomed
the human Batow Weakendestined
the goblin Stosbub Crosstorments the Fed Crystal
the dwarf Zolak Curljackal
the human Nato Brimink
the goblin Bosa Spiderdawn
the elf Amayi Umbershook the Fed Stroke of Standards
the goblin Usbu Strifefulhate
the elf Yawo Skinmoths the Elder Crest of Sabres
the dwarf Urvad Castlegleam
the goblin Ngokang Hexlurked
the elf Covema Torridwind
the dwarf Meng Rampartshore
the dwarf Mebas Rayroom the Spotted
the dwarf Logem Slingspikes
the elf Atera Sunnycloister the Obscure Bell of Strapping
the dwarf Onul Ringeddrive
the goblin Mato Wickedscholar
the dwarf Ezum Urnclenches the Curled Controllers
the goblin Smunstu Workedwraiths
the goblin Zolak Maliceflooded
the human Irum Glorymarks
the human Adil Redspears
the goblin Bosa Breedcurses the Sizzling Queen
the dwarf Dumed Gearedboard the Grizzly Climax
the human Ngom Malignedbirds
the human Gabat Simpletool
the elf Idala Takengrowths the Livid Figure of Triangles
the dwarf Erush Hallwaned
the human Sothro Manorscrape
the elf Lene Soaredsmiles the Folded Death of Abbeys
the dwarf Ral Graveltin the Earthen Workers of Mortifying
the elf Iki Nutenters the Tenebrous Teeth
the goblin Asno Hatredhours the Drenched Rawness
the elf Aleya Earleaped the Trampled Tour of Painting
the human Bolli Notchedrhyming the Flickering Bust of Attacking
the dwarf Zolak Constructflies
the dwarf Utes Roastedmenaces
the dwarf Udil Blamelessstaves
the goblin Smunstu Hatetones
the human Cero Obscurefastened
the dwarf Ingish Admireportal the Spongy Courtesy of Lulling
the dwarf Edem Inkchanneled the Granite Sicknesses of Glitter
the goblin Zom Blockruthless the Ownership of Chains
the elf Avafi Conflictblazed
the elf Evala Bluntape
the dwarf Zasit Taughtshot the Gilded Scrape of Pears
the dwarf Utes Controlspider the Blockaded Breath of Fears
the dwarf Onul Bridgedrun the Defensive Confederacies
the goblin Asno Scorpiongleams the Walled Passions of Voicing
the human Ona Thriftyenjoys the Respect of Requirements
the elf Rifa Snakesweavers the Yawning Decline
the dwarf Ineth Cobraaxe the Oily Glen of Tribute
the elf Mokathi Clamwiped
the human Uce Confusedpokers
the goblin Usbu Jackalcradles
the goblin Zolak Seducedcactus
the goblin Tode Devilrise
the human Xem Cookwatchful
the goblin necromancer Snamoz Menacejackal
the goblin Smunstu Evilclams
the goblin Dang Dashhate
the dwarf Asmel Duststaves
the elf Ova Ivygleamed the Cheerful Turmoil of Urns
the dwarf Solon Moistenedtower the Contested Teacher
the elf Adela Poettwisted
the elf Fidale Saffronlarks
the goblin Bax Hatedbrutal the Lean Gulf of Assembling
the human Pusap Tealbaby
the goblin necromancer Stozu Blottedhated
the dwarf Bembul Roombalanced
the G rigkel's eye Ushrir Allytongs
the dwarf Logem Weightpick the Ponderous Lancers of Sweltering
the dwarf Tulon Boulderbridge
the dwarf Nish Merchantsiege
the dwarf Kumil Rampartrhyming the Constructive Dance of Wasps
the goblin Stozu Plaguetests the East Tribe of Inks
the human Adi Ardentwheels
the dwarf Aban Knifelenses the Mountainous Knot of Bodices
the dwarf Ezum Letterburied
the human Usan Bluntburial
the human Menung Stoppedsteam
the elf Inevi Seatrails the Rounded Lamentation of Eyes
the G rigkel's eye Dumed Flagboard
the dwarf Asmel Judgeinked
the dwarf Ingiz Amberboot the Confident Chance of Showering
the dwarf Onul Gearrim the Ace Notch
the dwarf Zuntir Shotarches the Tired
the G rigkel's eye Udib Inkred
the dwarf Likot Humidfigures
the human Nushrat Crewscalded the Lucid Breath of Nails
the human Ilum Growquick the Laborious Nose of Savages
the dwarf Kel Soulsclasp
the dwarf Morul Letterstraps the Strifeful Mess of Fires
the goblin Ngebzo Shoottorment
the goblin Ngom Badoiled
the human Aso Quakechains
the goblin Zolak Menacepatterned the Visionary of Roaring
the goblin Bax Walledhexes
the elf Ametha Notchearthen
the human Itke Routedquested
the human Abe Containedtribes
the dwarf Kosoth Breachportals the Bejeweled Post of Angels
the human Bortu Beginyawned
the human Onmo Candyfuture
the G rigkel's eye Vabok Channellantern
the dwarf Kol Tomepaddled the Playful Metal of Voices
the dwarf Tosid Passroad
the goblin Ngoso Hatescrape the Autumnal Palace of Prophets
the goblin Dostngosp Malignedsoothed
the goblin Stosbub Beanpoison
the goblin Smunstu Doommaster the Healer of Rifts
the dwarf Kumil Fountainblunt the Quiescent
the human Nocam Agedearth
the dwarf Urvad Quakefountain
the human Ala Muscleholes
the human Conu Swiftslosh
the goblin Azstrog Devilguts
the dwarf Solon Torchjaws
the goblin Dang Kindemons
the dwarf Melbil Earthbaldness
the dwarf Monom Relicbows
the goblin Osime Coastalslapped
the dwarf Bomrek Workdreamed
the dwarf Onol Craftdove
the goblin Snamoz Venomevil
the goblin Ozud Wastepoison
the goblin Ngoso Tormentgrip
the goblin Ngerxung Hellpastimes
the elf Ditari Bearpraised the Greater Wire of Ways
the elf Fayoba Sungwarm
the goblin Smunstu Flygrooves
the dwarf Aban Urncrystals the Lucky Paints
the goblin Ngerxung Fellbowl the Pleated Laborious Sweetness of Wars
the goblin Dostngosp Mutedmenaced
the dwarf Inod Tramplefurnace the Competitive
the elf Famime Bandgloss the Festive
the human Obin Waymighty
the dwarf Urdim Leafyrims
the goblin Usbu Combinedhells
the goblin Ago Scholarsin
the goblin Gozru Veiledflies
the goblin Ngoso Prowledscorpions the Word of Guilt
the goblin Snang Trooperfiend the Gilded Sky of Quietness
the dwarf Doren Quicknesswinds
the dwarf Datan Oneinked the Noble Seal
the dwarf Ubbul Masteredbasement the Ashen Nights of Handling
the goblin Stosbub Deathseduce
the goblin Usbu Counselprofane
the dwarf Asob Presentportal
the Teshil's fist Izem Scoopglosses the Lurid Juice
the goblin Usbu Monstroustame
the Teshil's fist Mab Bravedscarred
the goblin Usbu Braidedstole
the elf Eletha Cattrussed the Silvery Scream of Vegetation
the elf Etile Flewpoets
the elf Ditari Factionmothers the Sepia Drink of Savants
the elf Ilathe Silkentrussed the Faint Growl of Declining
the elf Ametha Reveredmoths the Ace Savage of Wanes
the elf Romimi Waxbristle the Released Weights
the goblin Olngo Nastyseduces the Born Riddle of Ceilings
the dwarf Crewedtown the Lucid
the goblin Bolthame the Tragic Twigs
the goblin Sneaksyrup
the goblin Cavehairs the Taut Grips
the goblin Channelanguished the Copper Crown of Shooting
the goblin Guildsizzle the Occult Passion of Blocks
the goblin
the goblin Rosyshadow
the elf Sprayedoil
the dwarf Strifebirth
the elf Emima Basindented
the elf Atha Gorgeburied
the elf Scrapesword
the G rigkel's eye Citu Matchdrilled
the elf Bannersomber
the elf Handleblade the Guilty Eye of Standards
the dwarf Eaglehammers
the goblin Bosa Wraithnamed
the dwarf Mosus Reveredarmor
the dwarf Chaostin
the dwarf Gloveleaped
the human Pis Equallips the Shameful
the goblin Rhymingcanyon the Adorable Tangle of Summer
the goblin Weightmanors
the goblin Inkedgifts
the goblin Fishwhip
the goblin Tongsmind the Silent Quietness
the goblin
the goblin Cageearth
the goblin Onegilt
the goblin Acewheel
the goblin Laboredmined the Ivory
the goblin Dostngosp Devilmarks
the dwarf Obeyedcrystals
the dwarf Galerim
the dwarf Fikod Inkedblazed
the goblin Smunstu Spiderattacks
the human Stilllabor the Turquoise Times of Carnality
the dwarf Landlancers
the human Bronzelabors
the human Silverypelts
the human Cloistertwinkles
the goblin Nguslu Fatwitch
the goblin Rampartblunt
the goblin Giftcave
the dwarf Obeycrystal
the goblin
the goblin Knifesoothed
the goblin
the dwarf Hatchetwound
the dwarf Earthenechoed
the dwarf
the dwarf
the dwarf
the goblin Trussrocks
the goblin Skingirders
the goblin Towndreamed
the goblin Waningwhipped
the goblin Papereagles
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin Wheelbowed
the goblin Shortbolt the Erasure of Temples
the goblin
the dwarf Atir Scholarrings
the goblin Amberpaint
the goblin Granitestops
the goblin Muterims
the goblin
the goblin Vigorgorges
the goblin
the goblin Rockhandles the Grasping Warmth
the goblin Smithwhite
the goblin
the goblin
the human Ligir Tulipenjoy
the elf
the elf
the G rigkel's eye Rith Renowneddoor
the goblin Stozu Vilestirs
the elf Laborparched
the elf Channelyell
the elf
the elf Wrungbronze
the elf
the elf
the elf Bustphantoms
the elf
the elf Thrownglazes
the elf Glowurn
the human Osman Coverscorches
the dwarf Sakzul Syruptrammels
the dwarf Medtob Tundrarocks
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin Cloisterednet
the goblin Cudgelworlds
the dwarf
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin Bravequakes
the goblin Trampledrampart
the dwarf
the goblin Whippaddled
the dwarf Gildtest
the dwarf Sackbrand
the dwarf Lancetowers
the goblin
the goblin
the dwarf
the dwarf
the dwarf Moraltome
the dwarf
the human
the dwarf
the goblin Whipgilt
the goblin
the elf
the dwarf Braidclasp
the goblin Ropemoistness
the elf
the elf Twinkledpick
the elf
the goblin Fencedsinged
the human Tor Daggerwhisker
the goblin Smunstu Doomedleaders
the dwarf Atir Arrowwork
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the dwarf
the dwarf Jumpbolt
the goblin Boltssinew
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin Strangerplanks the Infamous
the goblin
the goblin Bulwarkfortress
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin Doorbolted
the goblin Spikeringed
the goblin
the goblin Flagscorches
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the dwarf
the dwarf
the goblin
the elf
the goblin
the elf
the dwarf Channelcudgels
the elf
the goblin
the goblin Bridgetempest
the goblin
the dwarf
the dwarf As Manormeshes
the dwarf Mebzuth Columnceilings
the dwarf
the dwarf
the elf
the elf
the elf
the G rigkel's eye Olon Bandcoal
the goblin
the goblin Splatteredbodice
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the goblin
the dwarf
the dwarf
the dwarf
the dwarf
the dwarf

As we can see, there are a lot of different people in a necromancer government. Necromancers from different races (they seem to be the apprentices of the dwarf master) and different kinds of undead minion.

So well, this does not solve the question of why no goblins raise Tower.

After digging, it appears that this is not really true. Let’s take a look at the Human Necromancer government « The Skinny Corridors » :



Ok .. so, this is a « human necromancer government » created by ... a goblin necromancer (and I have checked, this goblin have no human master), a « civilisation » composed of two goblin necromancer and ... two ... hum ... things ? But definitely not human things (probably megabeast, those things were resurrected by the goblin necromancer).

Let's look at their Tower « Crewchanneled » :



Same thing, not anything special about that.

So it appears that some of the towers in the game are simply misnamed.


I have not counted the tower concerned, but it seems to be mainly the case with Goblins. For unknown reasons ...  :-\
I should make another statistic analysis here to know how many towers are concerned by that ...

Interesting discovery : Necromancer government regularly attack hamlet, town, etc and seize them !! After that they kill some people and revive them as undead (it is not clear if they keep some normal people in those towns, must be checked in adventure mode I think).

Well, this was my discoveries for this time !

« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 02:09:20 pm by Nilsou »
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aSpatula66

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2024, 05:22:09 pm »

The towers aren't misnamed, they are named after the civilization that the necromancer who built them was from. A goblin from a human civilization would make a "human tower."
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Eric Blank

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2024, 06:39:50 pm »

That's good data. Makes me think now, of course I agree with the above post and am taking that into account, that there's still something about goblin civilization that's either allowing them to remain or forcing them to leave, which im thinking is more likely now. They could be emigrating immediately either before or after becoming a necromancer, joining another civ and making a tower that counts as one of those races'.

From your example of Crewchanneled there, the founder, Sathra, is a human name so they muat have been a native citizen of a human civ. Snang on the other hand is a goblin name, meaning they must have emigrated from a goblin civ. Many of the goblins in the population list you posted have goblin names, and I don't see any other races who have goblin names.

I guess it ultimately hinges on whether they're leaving before or after becoming a necromancer. Maybe there is something keeping the goblins that stay from making a tower, so they're leaving to go join one someone else built.

Also, they tend to build a camp before building a tower. How many goblin necromancers are sitting in camps not doing anything for decades? There will usually be one or two sitting in camps after worldgen who didn't accumulate enough undead yet, but it would stand out if they're mostly goblins and have been there for decades or centuries.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2024, 01:30:44 pm »

To chip in a relatively obscure fact.

I think its likely normal vanilla goblins don't have the economic opportunities to make towers because they do not have the breadth of worldgen personal purses (pre and post) to invest in it, as human and dwarven necromancers often embezzle money to amass the funds to create a tower in the first place (emphasised specifically in trade companies in 47.). This might be caused specifically by the Dark Fortress site-type, compounded with those that could have opportunities are only serving as advisors or prominent figures to the tower owner and already have responsibilities.
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aradar

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2024, 09:17:28 am »

i thought it had something mainly to do with the creature it self and maybe it does still, I made a secret that makes the creature that learns it very powerful, and the towers from this creature are everywhere, stock necromancer are weak.........that has to be it I don't know what else it could be my creature is massively outweigh in towers like 30 to 1

aradar

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Re: Goblins Towers in DF 50.
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2024, 06:50:57 pm »

Disregard
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