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[hector13]

[...]

The best way to avoid Lynch All Lurkers, thus, is to not be the person with the least posts. Yes, I will accept that lurking is anti-town, but anti-town doesn’t necessarily equal scum. Lynch All Lurkers is a horribly flawed way of lynching if your goal is to lynch scum.

I’m with Esteemed ToonyMan: Esteemed EuchreJack has made himself look like scum, and if he flips town it’s going to provide information about a bunch of players, and that fact alone makes him an infinitely better lynch than a lurker.

What do we learn if EuchreJack flips Town?  I'd argue we learned nothing.  We learn that same lesson every time EuchreJack acts like this and we vote him out.  We vote for EuchreJack because we can't dig a little deeper.  We vote for EuchreJack because he does things without putting as much thought into it as he should.  We vote EuchreJack and accept the results, in spite of how insane that sounds.  Because it will happen again.

Personally, I would be okay with flipping EuchreJack if, assuming he turned Town, you, Imp, and ToonyMan were directly tied to his fate.  Not because it would be good for Town, but because it would be good for you.  But, that won't happen.  You would accept that EuchreJack shouldn't have done the things that he did.  And I can prove it because you posted this when TricMagic died:

He literally asked for it. Could’ve done with one a bit more informative, but it looks like it was a problem in need of an answer anyway.

Every problem can be solved with death, but the game can't be won by killing everyone.

Well there’s not really much to say about the rest of it because you’re probably right, and from your perspective coloured perhaps by the things you have claimed.

The problem I’m having is that Esteemed ToonyMan is also right, coloured by his own perspective. His perspective is backed up by two other players though, all of whom have independently claimed that Pirates are Red among other things, like Millers and Mafia being Red and other colours of alignment.

Spoiler: musings on it, justifying my own position, probably WIFOM it’s late and I’m tired (click to show/hide)

Now, it could be that any one of them is scum, hopping on to an easy thing they can manufacture into a slip, but they also know that should Esteemed EuchreJack flip, attention will fall on everyone who was pushing the colour slip as a reason for flipping him. Easy enough if you’re the only scum in your team doing it, you don’t accidentally dob in your scumbuddies, but by the same token, it means they can’t all be scum, or if they are they’re on different teams, excepting cheeky gambits. I’d suggest it’s awfully risky to be trying to power wolf on D1 in a now 17 player game though.

Esteemed The Canadian kitten

You’re here, the idea isn’t to clear yourself (necessarily) but engage more with the game. 18 players is a lot, consider the following, though you’ve already answered one part:

Which player(s) do you consider to be most likely to be Town, and why?

Which player(s) do you consider to be most likely to be scum, and why?

Which player(s) do you most want more information from, and how are you going to go about doing that? My advice would be to pick one or two of them, vote them, ask them questions, and try to tie them down in your mind as town or scum.

You don’t need to solve the entire game on D1, but trying to solve one or two players is a good start.

[Lenglon]

You are correct in that I disengaged with this game, I have found out that 18 players is not manageable in my brain and my already dying interest in mafia. Correct about that I have no reads or suspects, and not scumhunting good enough. Scumhunting has never been a strong suit for me, especially with this game where everything moves so quick and large walls of text, and that I am seemingly currently acting Anti-town due to lurking and being terrible at mafia. However I am still town,
Well I'm clearly responding to the accusations and further questions asked by you and Jack. Do you wish for me to keep lurking and never respond or at least engage in conversation to clear my name?

Assuming you're town? I absolutely want you to clear your name. Please, go for it. Hopefully getting kicked like this will get you back into the game and you can help develop some leads, find some scum, and so on.

Assuming you're town and you give up? It's regrettable, but it's no real loss to lynch you if you do. An afk player is one of the best things possible for scum, town will be more likely to win without you in it if you can't participate.

Assuming you're scum? I'd like you gone, but it'd be best if there was enough interactions around you first for your flip to tell us something about who your teammates are, so I want more people involved with you and interacting with you.
It's fine to need time to do a proper re-read, but you're coming in only in response to being voted and blatently bandwagoning without even understanding what the cases you're bandwagoning on ARE. So start by picking someone, using the lurkertracker report by mamobo to help you focus on them and their posts, and what I want you to do is to tell me a story. The story is the story of what that person had to say, how they felt about it, and why they said what they said. I want you to tell me what their fears are, their interests are, their goals are. Okay? Tell me the story of player's day 1. And I honestly don't care who you pick. Pick me if you like, pick one of the current wagons if you like, pick someone that people are overlooking if you like. Just tell me their story.

[hector13]

Let’s see if we can summon someone else, bearing in mind we expect follow through on the advice, Esteemed The Canadian kitten.

Esteemed sofanthiel, at the risk of falling into the same behaviour I did in the Supernatural game Esteemed EuchreJack linked, perhaps you’d like to join us and follow the advice Esteemed Lenglon and I gave Esteemed The Canadian kitten?

[Imp]

The Canadian Kitten

I may be disengaged, but not that level of disengaged, if I truly wanted stopped caring about this game completely, I would have asked FOU about some options for ways out.

Hey hi.  So, what does playing look like to you?  What should you and all of us do?

I wonder, there's 17 of us now.  Could we all do our parts?  Some evil, some good, but all doing pieces?

If so, what would your piece look like?  How to do it?  Who would you talk to?  How would you help?

[Lenglon]

Canadian:

So here's my current working theory. I think the timing of your arrival is not at all a coincidence, but that you are telling the truth about having trouble following what's going on.
The reason you're having trouble following what's going on is the perfectly reasonable problem of there is a lot of it and you haven't been keeping up with it until now.
However, the level of disengagement shown just now is so extreme that you shouldn't have noticed that you were even being voted... on your own.
In my opinion, your teammates yelled at you in your private chat, warning you what was going on, maybe even suggesting who you needed to be voting.
However, not even they were aware of how thoroughly disengaged you were, and they didn't give you the full cases for WHY those needed to be your scumpicks, trusting you more than they should have.
I also think that the only reason you'd be this fully disengaged with the game is if my theory that the town was turning on itself is correct, and that all the current wagons other than yourself are not on your scumteam.
My current guess is that we've been hunting pirates, and that Canadian is mafia.

This post here is an example of what I mean by telling a story. I'm using what information I have to write a narrative that fits what you're said and done, assigning you motive, goals, and interests. What I'm asking you to do is to look over someone and write their narrative, what their goals are (and aren't), similar to how I assigned you the goal of survival, what their interests are (and aren't) similar to how I assigned you to not having interest in finding scum, what their fears are (and aren't), like I assigned you the fear of being lynched.
It's okay that it's just going to be a guess, that you're likely to be at the very least moderately incorrect. Just take your guess, and tell their story.

[Imp]

EuchreJack:

So, presuming you are somehow creating a mason 'Piratechat' team.

But how by all that is -

You say you pick the 3 people.

You don't know who town is.

What happens if someone, anyone that you pick or even all, is anti-town?

Shivers

Everyone:

Wouldn't this be incredible balance.

If right now, we're all town or non-town hunters.

Some, or many, fated to have an opportunity to later become anti-town.

But what if EucherJack's D1 miller group is possible because right now every one of us is, for the moment at least, town?

I don't know this.  I also don't believe it.  But it's a what if that hit me, based on what was said.

We have hunters, with nothing, yet, to hunt?

We have people who can become?

We have chats waiting for us, those of us who may 'turn'.

OMG would that be the game of the century, and the little clues, don't they all kinda point that way?

[Lenglon]

Imp: What you're describing is what's called a Bastard Mod. Bastard Mods are a ton of fun and require being super open-minded, but this isn't that. This is a BYOR. BYOR games do have a lot of unusual roles and abilities, but they don't go so far as to change the overall nature of the game or to create false objectives. There is, 100% at least one scumteam here, right now. Dial it back a little.

[EuchreJack]

EuchreJack:

So, presuming you are somehow creating a mason 'Piratechat' team.

But how by all that is -

You say you pick the 3 people.

You don't know who town is.

Mason is incorrect, as Mason are alignment confirmed.
As you point out, I don't know who is town, and the chat itself will not reveal alignment.
However, being able to have a private conversation among myself and 3 players means we will learn a lot more about each other. Imagine a large group having a conference, then I inviting off 3 people for a private conversation. We'll all get to know each other far better than in the large group.
It's also a Discord chat, so it's a "faster" medium.

[Imp]

Imp: What you're describing is what's called a Bastard Mod. Bastard Mods are a ton of fun and require being super open-minded, but this isn't that. This is a BYOR. BYOR games do have a lot of unusual roles and abilities, but they don't go so far as to change the overall nature of the game or to create false objectives. There is, 100% at least one scumteam here, right now. Dial it back a little.

Sure.  Thanks.

Ahem, so... EuchreJack... presuming there are currently anti-town.

How do you somehow deal with or avoid possibly recruiting them?  Or make them belong in the mix you make of whatever you are making? Ahh, you answered, cool.  Also, weird.

FallacyofUrist Are you willing to confirm or deny if there are any existing anti-town alignments, actual ones, right now?

[EuchreJack]

Let’s see if we can summon someone else, bearing in mind we expect follow through on the advice, Esteemed The Canadian kitten.

Esteemed sofanthiel, at the risk of falling into the same behaviour I did in the Supernatural game Esteemed EuchreJack linked, perhaps you’d like to join us and follow the advice Esteemed Lenglon and I gave Esteemed The Canadian kitten?

In an 18 player game, I think 2 votes are needed for summoning.
So I will_reluctantly join Hector in voting sofanthiel[/b]

@The Canadian Kitten: Keep working on your homework, lest you get expelled!

[FallacyofUrist]

FallacyofUrist Are you willing to confirm or deny if there are any existing anti-town alignments, actual ones, right now?

Yes, there are anti-Town players hidden among you. This is a high-power BYOR, but it's not a bastard mod.

I literally had Meph, the Mafia board moderator, review the setup.

[Imp]

Let's not entirely forget CrystalizedMire, in case, but, maybe 3 works even better.  Sofanthiel?

Hey buddy!

Here's my current read of you.

Came in with roleplay, switched to standard proceedure.  Y'vote Maximum Spin as you answer RVS, but you don't question them.

I know that you say have fun beside Elephant Parade, and you appear to rolefish at EP

Elephant Parade, Is your ability offensive or defensive?  Who do you plan to use it on?  Is my 2nd question even applicable to your secret power?

but you don't seem to like me asking you even what you were thinking -

Role fishing is considered a scum move because the mafia would know who to target. Also, I'm pretty sure we have this kind of talk before

If my role PM is anything to go by, this game seems exponentially more complex than that.

What were you thinking about and referring to when you said this?

I deliberately chose to omit such details; asking me to elaborate seems like an attempt to fish out my role.

Huh, so, it's okay if you do it, but not others.  Also, no.  I wanna know what you were thinking.  Are you thinking only about your role?  CrystalizedMire talked to you about rolefishing.  You answer oddly.  I ask you about what you're thinking; you suggest I'm rolefishing.  I'm asking you what your thoughts are.  If you submitted 'My thoughts' as your role, well, whoops.  I wasn't going for that.  But surely you have non-classified thoughts too?  Anything?

After all, you chose to not omit such details when you said what you said.  Why say it?  Just having funsies?

But what about your wincon, and your scumhunting?  You do this:

In fact, Max might actually be more likely to speak if I don't make what I want to hear so obvious.

I step forward, take a heroic pose, and say, "Then I have no choice but to take on the duty of enforcing it!"

So... my read ends with thinking you intend to coast into D2, that that's your strat.  Others can scumhunt, others can work.  You'll just take what looks good, and play, and look boldly heroic where it's not clearly work at all.

What do you think of that read?

What do you think about making that impression?

What are you going to do?

FallacyofUrist:

Yes, there are anti-Town players hidden among you. This is a high-power BYOR, but it's not a bastard mod.

I literally had Meph, the Mafia board moderator, review the setup.

Thanks!  I'm clueless enough to ask, and I hugely appreciate the answer.  I didn't see it as a flaw, and didn't know about bastard mods.

[BlackHeartKabal]

Unvote

I need time to review the thread. I think that the shot on Tric was good, considering their role.

[BlackHeartKabal]

Unvote*

[BlackHeartKabal]

Firstly - lets calm down with the spats. If not for simply being nice, then because, pragmatically personal bias and distaste will interfere with the ability to make unbiased reads of others.

Alright. ToonyMan had the right of it, and is my strongest town candidate, in that he's focusing on confirmation, and, playing optimally, wouldn't have made a single comment on that mess if he were anything but town. Imp has a comprehensive claim that's quite extra for a fakeclaim, and their primary opposition was a Town/SK role - but we were ignoring EuchreJack, who basically outed themselves earlier. Web and Max were actively trying to cover for this, which... what? I can't reconcile that with being town, but at the same time I think webadict is town.

I feel like I'm the only one besides Toony that didn't get the opposite day memo. And I feel like that bullet from Jim pulled some grazing ricochet off of everyone else's heads on the way to target and knocked some sense into them.

Every problem can be solved with death, but the game can't be won by killing everyone.

But at the same time, we can't just turn down every suspect because we're afraid of errors and wine.

Riiiiiiiiight. So you expect me to buy that you post only after you get voted by coincidence, at which point you post three times in rapid succession. Your only comment about the game is to say that the most popular scumpicks of others are your scumpicks, because of reasons that are nonsensical nulltells, one of them even being able to be summed up as an active-lurking accusation!

No, it's obvious that you are acting entirely to protect yourself, not trying to find scum. You are completely disengaged with the game, attempting to coast by on the sidelines unnoticed and unobserved. You have no real reads, you have no real suspects, you have zero interest in finding scum and aren't even making an attempt at doing so. You are not town.

I don't think that this is a bad vote, but there's always the possibility of this being psychological pressure and not wanting to be the first to die after being marked as a suspect due to lurking. Of course, now they can't possibly be the first to die, but being the first lynch is close enough. They would make a good investigation target, if possible. I'm personally having an issue keeping track of all the arguments (which I'm managing by just rejecting, wholesale, all the ones I consider to be wrong). Real life concerns compound this, and are something that wouldn't be lied about. I can admire the LAL policy, but I think that you're hyperfocusing on it a bit. I consider you as part of the core "very likely town" bloc right now, so I value your reads on others, here.

Shivers

Horses and zebras. My idea of it, presuming prior theories of two scum teams is correct, is that Jack is meant to build his own scum team on the first night - which, if correct, makes this an effective four in one. I do hope that I'm not tunneling on the potential value of this, though.

This doesn't clear sofanthiel if Jack flips scum, though - they could agree with hector's suspicion to eliminate a competitor rather than eliminate scum.

Let me also say to everyone relevant that with all of these factors in play, I think the self-sacrificing behaviour can relax a little. I get that we have numbers advantage over scum teams and such, and that victory is no less sweeter in the graveyard, but one bad night could flip that on its head. Disposability of a piece is for when that piece can achieve something in doing so.

Now to reread the thread again, to ensure I didn't miss anything.