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[Maximum Spin]

This could backfire on us if Tricmagic doesn't allow us to nolynch twice in a row or the scum nokills leading to the endless loop of both party doing nothing.[/quote]I don't think Tric would ban it, but an endless loop of neither party doing anything WOULD help me delay having to do work, so I support this idea.

[Imp]

Ehhh, I don't feel like talking much, it's the weekend and I'm sleepy.

I guess at this point it's technically optimal to vote out a1s, but we have a lot of time left to make that decision. A couple players are definitely giving me bad vibes. Anyone else care to confirm that you're absolutely not In the Know?

Hey, so sorry to hear you don't feel like talking much and are sleepy.  Hope you can get some good sleep soon, and not sure how the weekend effects stuff for you.

I hope you're otherwise okay, not depressed or having other out of game trouble.

Since:

Day 1 has begun. It will end in 120 Hours.

That's Wednesday, November 1st.  There's no hammer, so there's no way the day ends earlier than that.

Get some sleep, please.  Take great care of yourself, please.  I'll listen to you whenever you feel like talking.  If there's something going on with your mental/emotional/health state that affects how you play, if you choose to share it that might be wise.  Of course, this is a game of mafia, so everything you are seen saying and doing do matter and can profoundly affect your team and your team's chances of winning.

When you feel like talking, would you please explain how anyone answering your question of "Anyone else care to confirm that you're absolutely not In the Know?" helps your team?

[Maximum Spin]

When you feel like talking, would you please explain how anyone answering your question of "Anyone else care to confirm that you're absolutely not In the Know?" helps your team?

Pretty simple. Someone knows for sure that another player is town. That means both that that player is cleared, and that that player can clear another. However, that player isn't allowed to say so. But if only one player isn't willing to categorically deny it, then that player's  opinions about other players are suddenly much more interesting. And if only, let's say, two or three players aren't willing to categorically deny it, then we should be suspicious of those players since mafia would reasonably want to disrupt the process of identification. Town have no reason not to just deny it. And, after all, since the Dog in the No [sic] has no special powers, once the information is out there, that player isn't any more valuable a kill target than anyone else, so it doesn't benefit the mafia any.
Such an individual might, while choosing not to deny being such, give, say, a list of all the (five) players that player doesn't feel confident about. For example.

[Imp]

My point is that lurking doesn't automatically mean scum though it probably helps scum more.

Crystal:  Well, you're definitely one of the least-lurky of us, you were first post even!

Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?

"Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game."
"Pros: The Cop would at least get one investigation before they die"

So, the cop can investigate.  There's 6 people the cop could investigate, and only 1 would give a definite read, the henchmen[sic, cause that's plural]  All the other 5 would read as town, including the one godfather mafia.

How valuable do you believe the cop's role is in this game, with the defined rules?

[Imp]

Pretty simple. Someone knows for sure that another player is town. That means both that that player is cleared, and that that player can clear another. However, that player isn't allowed to say so. But if only one player isn't willing to categorically deny it, then that player's  opinions about other players are suddenly much more interesting. And if only, let's say, two or three players aren't willing to categorically deny it, then we should be suspicious of those players since mafia would reasonably want to disrupt the process of identification. Town have no reason not to just deny it. And, after all, since the Dog in the No [sic] has no special powers, once the information is out there, that player isn't any more valuable a kill target than anyone else, so it doesn't benefit the mafia any.
Such an individual might, while choosing not to deny being such, give, say, a list of all the (five) players that player doesn't feel confident about. For example.

Man, this bugs me so much.  I'll explain why for the other town members.

See, the mafia know who the town are.  What they don't know are which town have the special roles -but both mafia members also know who ever town person is.

But if we participate in this charade and claim we're not the dog in the know (which the real dog in the know is also allowed to claim by my understanding of the rules shared with us) then the mafia also know a role to go for.

And we don't actually know that the dog in the know isn't also another role; from how I read the rules that knowing dog could also be cop or also be doctor.

And day 1 is the least useful and interesting day for that person to be revealed; to me that's only town-useful in case we wanna have the doctor considering if they wanna protect that knowing role, and that's seriously marginalized in every case I can think of playing out.

And the one knowing townie will never vote for the one they know about, which is town-useful as long as that knowing townie is alive, and reason for the mafia to remove that knowing one early.

---

Folks, is there error you see in my reasoning?

As is I am confidently responding "I am town, and don't want any town to say anything about not being the Dog in the Know".  You mafia, do whatever the heck you think helps your cause, as you surely already are.

[sofanthiel]

Just for the record, I'm not the Dog in the Know. In fact, I'm just a boring regular dog, unfortunately.

For whoever is: just don't specifically say that you aren't.

Ohhh, I see now; I assumed you tried to imply that you were actually the Dog in the Know by formatting "not" like that.  I'm also pretty tired, so you can blame sleep deprivation for my partial inability to read between

the

lines.  I'm not the dog in the know

[Crystalizedmire]

My point is that lurking doesn't automatically mean scum though it probably helps scum more.

Crystal:  Well, you're definitely one of the least-lurky of us, you were first post even!

Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?

"Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game."
"Pros: The Cop would at least get one investigation before they die"

So, the cop can investigate.  There's 6 people the cop could investigate, and only 1 would give a definite read, the henchmen[sic, cause that's plural]  All the other 5 would read as town, including the one godfather mafia.

How valuable do you believe the cop's role is in this game, with the defined rules?

I'm not so sure now that I realize the cop isn't guaranteed to have a correct investigation report.

[Imp]

I'm not so sure now that I realize the cop isn't guaranteed to have a correct investigation report.

Gotcha, Crystal.

So, would you clarify what you recommend now, and what your stances are now, if any have changed since your previous statements?

Do you still recommend the cop reveal?

What you were saying before, "Regarding Nolynching: Nolynching on the first day brings us to MeLo on the second day so unless we're sure that we know who the scum is on the second day we would have to nolynch again. This could backfire on us if Tricmagic doesn't allow us to nolynch twice in a row or the scum nokills leading to the endless loop of both party doing nothing."  I don't understand, are you recommending we no-lynch today, or what is your recommendation otherwise?

And I missed your answering my other question, which I tried to helpfully bold for you before, and try again now:

Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?

[Maximum Spin]

Everything about your reasoning is fundamentally screwed up. We're talking about the possibility of having two confirmed town players. Except to the extent that confirmed town players are always a target, the Dog in the Know is simply not "a role to go for" to the mafia, because it has no particular features other than being confirmed town. Once the actual information of the player that player is in the know about is out, there's no mechanical difference between the Dog in the Know and anyone else. So your whole thesis is wrong and frankly rather scummy.
Simply put, having two confirmed town forces the mafia to let us go into day 2 with at least one confirmed town, which is a strong benefit; and the doctor can protect one, forcing at least a 50/50 shot of having two confirmed town on day 2. That's a big deal given the existence of only two mafia. To make matters "worse"... by your own acknowledgement, the cop is of limited value in this setup as a cop. On the other hand, the cop is of greater value as a definite town role. In the event that the cop is neither the Dog in the Know nor the target of that knowledge, that would mean three confirmed town if the cop claims. Four if the doctor is also neither of them - so best case scenario the mafia is narrowed down to two out of three. Now, this obviously forces the mafia to counterclaim, but even then, that can only involve up to two players, which means, in many of the possible arrangements, the game is still already solved.
For all intents and purposes, the only role that's a significant target to the mafia in and of itself is the doctor. The cop is fairly weak under the circumstances, having to hit the henchman round 1 to have any real impact. Certainly, if either the Dog in the Know or his knowledge-target is also the doctor, I would recommend keeping the doctor part secret and quietly protecting the other of the two. If both of those players are vanilla town, then a full claim will confine the mafia nearly completely. It's also possible that they are exactly the doctor and cop, which would be the least useful of the outcomes for town, because mafia can simply choose not to counter-claim, and are then only restricted to being 2/5... but that's still pretty good compared to 2/7. It also obviously follows that a doctor or cop who isn't the Dog in the Know should also want the Dog in the Know to be revealed: it guarantees that the actual power role will live longer.
Or basically, in short, another way to think about it is: the mafia will always know they're killing a town player at night. The information that a specific player is town, then, doesn't benefit them in any way. The only value that the Dog in the Know role has over others is exactly that information, so revealing it is better for town.

[Imp]

Everything about your reasoning is fundamentally screwed up. We're talking about the possibility of having two confirmed town players. Except to the extent that confirmed town players are always a target, the Dog in the Know is simply not "a role to go for" to the mafia, because it has no particular features other than being confirmed town. Once the actual information of the player that player is in the know about is out, there's no mechanical difference between the Dog in the Know and anyone else. So your whole thesis is wrong and frankly rather scummy.
Simply put, having two confirmed town forces the mafia to let us go into day 2 with at least one confirmed town, which is a strong benefit; and the doctor can protect one, forcing at least a 50/50 shot of having two confirmed town on day 2. That's a big deal given the existence of only two mafia. To make matters "worse"... by your own acknowledgement, the cop is of limited value in this setup as a cop. On the other hand, the cop is of greater value as a definite town role. In the event that the cop is neither the Dog in the Know nor the target of that knowledge, that would mean three confirmed town if the cop claims. Four if the doctor is also neither of them - so best case scenario the mafia is narrowed down to two out of three. Now, this obviously forces the mafia to counterclaim, but even then, that can only involve up to two players, which means, in many of the possible arrangements, the game is still already solved.
For all intents and purposes, the only role that's a significant target to the mafia in and of itself is the doctor. The cop is fairly weak under the circumstances, having to hit the henchman round 1 to have any real impact. Certainly, if either the Dog in the Know or his knowledge-target is also the doctor, I would recommend keeping the doctor part secret and quietly protecting the other of the two. If both of those players are vanilla town, then a full claim will confine the mafia nearly completely. It's also possible that they are exactly the doctor and cop, which would be the least useful of the outcomes for town, because mafia can simply choose not to counter-claim, and are then only restricted to being 2/5... but that's still pretty good compared to 2/7. It also obviously follows that a doctor or cop who isn't the Dog in the Know should also want the Dog in the Know to be revealed: it guarantees that the actual power role will live longer.
Or basically, in short, another way to think about it is: the mafia will always know they're killing a town player at night. The information that a specific player is town, then, doesn't benefit them in any way. The only value that the Dog in the Know role has over others is exactly that information, so revealing it is better for town.

I love how much you're talking, Max the said was sleepy and don't wanna talk one!

I'll think over what you said soon.

However, you really do appear willing and able to talk when it pleases you.

How about you go back through the thread, and answer the questions that have already been asked of you that you have not so far answered?

[Maximum Spin]

How about you go back through the thread, and answer the questions that have already been asked of you that you have not so far answered?

I don't answer questions unless I feel like it. It's one of my rules.

[Imp]

I don't answer questions unless I feel like it. It's one of my rules.

Delightful.  And this is part of WINNING for you how?  Care to explain for the rest of us who are theoretically on the same team as you, and thus 'wanna win with you', should any of 'us' also be on whatever team you are?

[Crystalizedmire]

Do you still recommend the cop reveal?

What you were saying before, "Regarding Nolynching: Nolynching on the first day brings us to MeLo on the second day so unless we're sure that we know who the scum is on the second day we would have to nolynch again. This could backfire on us if Tricmagic doesn't allow us to nolynch twice in a row or the scum nokills leading to the endless loop of both party doing nothing."  I don't understand, are you recommending we no-lynch today, or what is your recommendation otherwise?

And I missed your answering my other question, which I tried to helpfully bold for you before, and try again now:

Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?

1. I'm not in favour anymore since the results may not be reliable and because it may be better in the long run for the cop to claim on the second day so that the doctor can protect themselves on the first day
2. I'm recommending we lynch today since now realizing that cop investigation isn't a guaranteed way of finding townies
3. Only consider my evaluations once I'm dead or when I'm really certain that one player is not scum

[Maximum Spin]

I consider asking random dumb questions to be a dated and unproductive tactic favored by people who aren't very good at mafia, but have bought into the idea that it's how mafia is played.

[sofanthiel]

the mafia will always know they're killing a town player at night. The information that a specific player is town, then, doesn't benefit them in any way. The only value that the Dog in the Know role has over others is exactly that information, so revealing it is better for town.

Alright, well, you just solved the game!  The only issue is that, in the worst-case scenario, the doctor's gonna die (it'd be clear that one person in the dog-in-the-know pair has to be a doctor; otherwise, everyone would claim), but, eh, the doctor is already six feet under no matter what.  The other aspect is actually organizing this whole thing, which can be tricky due to everyone involved having incomplete information.