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Author Topic: !!SCIENCE!!: An ascent from the pit of hubris.  (Read 537 times)

Digganob

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!!SCIENCE!!: An ascent from the pit of hubris.
« on: July 28, 2023, 06:12:51 pm »

I have mistakenly posted research which was based upon erroneous raw edits. However, I have returned with truth.

In my work to create a mod of my own, I have come upon the question of how, precisely, castes and their sizes impact the size of armor a civilization may wear.

There are three methods I know which may be used to change the size of a caste in a creature: The use of, CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC, BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER, and BODY_SIZE, all of which must be placed into each caste via SELECT_CASTE.

TEST STRUCTURE:
These tokens are placed instead of the Xs in the following edited tokens of the human creature:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The goal of the test is for the armor sizing of humans to remain the same, as is verified by whether they may still, upon the following changes, equip wild boar men and hyena men armor, the two animal men which are close enough to human size for them to wear human armor, and vice versa. This is because they are within about seventh of their size. How precisely this range is determined is unknown.

For this test, each caste has been changed to the following degrees: FEMALEs to 35,000, MALEs staying at 70,000, and BIGMALEs being size 350,000. Theoretically, if armor size is determined by the average of the species, determined by each caste size multiplied by its frequency in birth, then this should result in the average of the species remaining 70,000.

BODY_SIZE for the base creature, for all but test four, remains in adulthood at 70,000

TEST ONE:
If BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER is used, with the values assigned as follows:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The result is no change to the armor sizing of the civilization, and all humans being able to wear their own human-sized armor. FEMALEs, however, as expected, have a hard time wielding anything with one hand. It is unknown if they are completely unable to wield anything with a one-handed size beyond 35,000, as I have found no examples of it in my tests.

TEST TWO:
If BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER is used differently, with the values assigned as follows:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The result is no change to the armor sizing of the civilization, and all humans being able to wear their own human-sized armor, despite the actual average of the species being higher than should allow the equippage of hyena men helmets, which are sized for 65,000.

TEST THREE:
If CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC is used, with the values assigned as follows (with males being excluded as nothing new is being declared in the raw):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The result is that the armor sizing of the humans becomes ~that of a tiger man, with all humans still being able to wear human-sized armor. This can be inferred by the production of various animal men armor until a size either smaller or larger than allowed is reached, and finding the average of these boundaries. This method is not precise, but it does not need to be, as explained later.

More interestingly is that the weight of armor is halved. This too will be explored later.

TEST FOUR:
If BODY_SIZE is used, with the values assigned as follows:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The result is the precise same all respects to test three, though this method does allow for more precise control over the body size of each caste, as it allows for the precise body size to be chosen, instead of being multiplied from the body size of the base creature.


From these tests, four primary conclusions are to be drawn:

Firstly, the modifying of BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER results in no changes to the average size of a species, nor to the weight of armor. This allows a method to changing the size of a creature's castes without affecting an entire civilization's armor sizes or weights, while still affecting individual caste's size, as is apparent with their ability to wield various weapons with or without both hands.

Secondly, that CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC and the final BODY_SIZE effect the same value, or rather that CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC changes the value of BODY_SIZE with no apparent effect other than a straightforward change to the value of it.

Thirdly, that the armor sizing of an creature is determined by the average of its caste's size, that is to say, the size of each caste at adulthood, divided by the number of castes a creature manifests.

And fourthly, that the weight of armor is determined by the size of the smallest caste of the creature it is sized for. This is made evident also when the armor of ant men is observed weighing only two kilograms, yet being very close to the same sizing as humans'.

There are many interesting uses for these conclusions, as well as yet more interesting tests which may be done using this knowledge. One which would require more knowledge and confidence in the mechanics than I possess is to test whether ant men armor, being lighter than human armor, but of the same sizing and therefore equippable by humans, allows a human soldier to move quicker while wearing it than when wearing regular human armor, and whether the weight of the armor has any influence on its defensive properties.

I will be using these conclusions myself for the creation of a mod involving a civilization of goblins of varying sizes, which are unable to produce any armor of their own, but should hopefully steal some during worldgen from either humans or dwarves to wear themselves. I will likely be utilizing BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER for this, as the larger castes of my goblins will be very large, and so the creation of redundant classes would be necessary in order to balance the size of the species as a whole.
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IncompetentFortressMaker

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Re: !!SCIENCE!!: An ascent from the pit of hubris.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2023, 07:49:40 pm »

The goal of the test is for the armor sizing of humans to remain the same, as is verified by whether they may still, upon the following changes, equip wild boar men and hyena men armor, the two animal men which are close enough to human size for them to wear human armor, and vice versa. This is because they are within about seventh of their size. How precisely this range is determined is unknown.
While I cannot vouch for its authenticity anymore, having hardly played 50.0x at all, I can tell you that whether a given race could wear another's clothing was determined by whether they were within 5,000cm³ greatest average size difference (that is, difference at the greatest average size they would ultimately reach) in 47.05 if the castes didn't have severe size differences themselves (unsure what would have happened had the castes had size differences). I know this test is about armor but I would personally, without having done much testing myself, think it might apply to armor as well as clothing. (For instance, a dwarf could not wear a human-sized shirt because the difference was 10,000cm³ - but if you modded either human or dwarf to be 65,000cm³ in size and didn't change the other, the two could wear one another's clothing.)

That said, I applaud your efforts.

Ziusudra

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Re: !!SCIENCE!!: An ascent from the pit of hubris.
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2023, 08:07:30 pm »

I can tell you that whether a given race could wear another's clothing was determined by whether they were within 5,000cm³ greatest average size difference
How sure are you about that?
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: Bumber
How exactly is a creature's acceptable clothing size range determined? From my own testing, it seems a tick man (35000) can wear an otter man's (40000) clothes, but not the other way around. This rules out a simple +/- tolerance or size brackets. Is it percent-based?
It looks like 6/7 < size < 8/7 are the limits.
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IncompetentFortressMaker

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Re: !!SCIENCE!!: An ascent from the pit of hubris.
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2023, 10:29:54 pm »

I've had situations in 47.05 where a 65,000cm³ modded race can wear 60,000cm³-sized clothes, if memory serves, but I admit it's been a while since I tested that one. Also vice versa.
(I fully admit I could be wrong about this, and that perhaps the range can be greater or less than 5,000cm³. But if a compatibility exists at all, from what I've seen of it, it tends to be within 5,000cm³.)