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[Loud Whispers]

Sevastopol Black Sea Fleet HQ in flames after devastating Ukrainian missile attack

Ukrainian tactics were really clever. First they launched a swarm of drones to saturate Russian air defences before launching Ukrainian-manufactured Neptune cruise missiles, to increase the likelihood of cruise missiles penetrating layered air defence systems. I actually think that for all the justified praise UK & Poland get for training Ukrainian servicemen, that actually Ukraine is in a position to train NATO forces on how to fight a conventional war in the 21st century. There was a very funny interview of a Ukrainian veteran who completed a training course abroad who said "50% was really useful, 50% would get me killed very quickly" after he told an instructor that their trench-clearing exercise was "nice but unusable." I also love this one quote from a US training instructor who said that the Ukrainians taught him the value of soup - can never have enough soup

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ey that's pretty good

[Lord Shonus]

Sevastopol Black Sea Fleet HQ in flames after devastating Ukrainian missile attack

Ukrainian tactics were really clever. First they launched a swarm of drones to saturate Russian air defences before launching Ukrainian-manufactured Neptune cruise missiles, to increase the likelihood of cruise missiles penetrating layered air defence systems. I actually think that for all the justified praise UK & Poland get for training Ukrainian servicemen, that actually Ukraine is in a position to train NATO forces on how to fight a conventional war in the 21st century. There was a very funny interview of a Ukrainian veteran who completed a training course abroad who said "50% was really useful, 50% would get me killed very quickly" after he told an instructor that their trench-clearing exercise was "nice but unusable." I also love this one quote from a US training instructor who said that the Ukrainians taught him the value of soup - can never have enough soup

That's how they hit the airbase the other day. This Fleet HQ attack was probably Storm Shadows - there's a video of the impact where the blur is more Storm Shadow shaped, and the hit has the distinctive sound of two warheads (Storm Shadow has a small warhead in front of the main one to clear debris and increase penetration) going off. Which is bad news for the target - Neptune's pretty lightweight with only a 130 kilogram warhead. Storm Shadow carries 450, and that initial charge lets it penetrate deep before going off.

EDIT: There's unconfirmed reports that there was a meeting at the time for high-ranking officers, including Admiral Viktor Sokolov himself. If this is true Ukraine might have just decapitated the Black Seas Fleet.

[Strongpoint]

When Russia attacked Crimea in 2014 a huge majority of our navy, especially officers, switched sizes. I hope some of them were in the headquarters today

[ChairmanPoo]

Only one reported death tho

[Strongpoint]

Only one reported death tho

Information coming from Russian official sources is hardly information at all.

[bloop_bleep]

No-one has mentioned the Poland row yet. In summary Poland, along with Slovakia and Hungary, announced they will continue to ban grain imports from Ukraine, after an EU-wide directive to ban all import of Ukrainian grain into the EU market was allowed to expire by the EU Commission. They said this is to protect local farmers from a potential glut in the market that would drop the price of grain. They will allow grain to continue to transit through the country. This is after the EU Commission insisted that EU members shouldn't make individual policies within the bloc. After this Ukraine made a complaint against Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia at the WTO (since dropped against Slovakia) that they were ignoring their international obligations. Zelenskyy also said in a speech at the UN that "friends in Europe" were creating a "political theatre" out of grain that had the effect of "setting the stage for a Moscow actor." Polish PM took offence to that statement and said there will be no further Polish shipments of weapons to Ukraine other than those already promised at this time, though he couched it in saying that this is because Poland was arming Poland first. This is in the context of upcoming parliamentary elections in Poland in which the ruling party PiS is facing pressure from the far-right who are opposed to more aid to Ukraine. There have been moves from both sides to repair ties.

[Lord Shonus]

No-one has mentioned the Poland row yet. In summary Poland, along with Slovakia and Hungary, announced they will continue to ban grain imports from Ukraine, after an EU-wide directive to ban all import of Ukrainian grain into the EU market was allowed to expire by the EU Commission. They said this is to protect local farmers from a potential glut in the market that would drop the price of grain. They will allow grain to continue to transit through the country. This is after the EU Commission insisted that EU members shouldn't make individual policies within the bloc. After this Ukraine made a complaint against Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia at the WTO (since dropped against Slovakia) that they were ignoring their international obligations. Zelenskyy also said in a speech at the UN that "friends in Europe" were creating a "political theatre" out of grain that had the effect of "setting the stage for a Moscow actor." Polish PM took offence to that statement and said there will be no further Polish shipments of weapons to Ukraine other than those already promised at this time, though he couched it in saying that this is because Poland was arming Poland first. This is in the context of upcoming parliamentary elections in Poland in which the ruling party PiS is facing pressure from the far-right who are opposed to more aid to Ukraine. There have been moves from both sides to repair ties.

This is a tempest in a teapot. Poland isn't sending any of their first-line weapons, because they have a large land border with Russia and are in the process of arming themselves to the teeth. What Poland has been sending is second-line gear they don't use anymore but is very useful to Ukraine because it was largely the same ex-Soviet equipment that makes up a large part of what Ukraine is already familiar with. Poland is running out of that. They've been quite open about that for months.

Poland DOES have an election going up, and big parts of their electorate are mad about Ukrainian grain flooding Western Europe (because it can't be shipped to Africa). So couching things in terms that help that domestically make sense. But Poland was going to stop sending weapons pretty soon no matter what, and they've very explicitly said that they're still backing the Ukrainian government.

[Strongpoint]

We are getting more and more people advocating for elections during the war and... I find it to be a very dangerous idea.

Not only does it contradict our constitution that says "no elections during martial law", not only the voting part is complicated with so many refugees and people busy fighting...

Elections are messy, they must include political attacks on the government, they create a divide by their very nature, and fair elections require freedom of speech beyond necessary war censorship.

At the same time, this war may continue for many more years. We can't just stop being a democracy. It is really complicated stuff

[Grim Portent]

Under the circumstances, and with the consitution that currently forbids having an election anyway, it seems prudent not to have one. It's time, effort and money that should be getting spent on maintaining the war effort, continuing to court allies for support, and trying to recreate or sustain a reasonable quality of life for civilians.

[EuchreJack]

Conversely, the United States held an election during the American Civil War. It's the defining line that separated Lincoln from being a Dictator. Lincoln WAS a Tyrant, under the Roman pre-imperial definition of the word.

Coming from a Country with a strong democratic tradition (The United States, believe it or not), I would say our country would hold the election. We've also never voted out a war-time President. So, I am in no position to advise Ukraine. While I do personally think Ukraine should have an Election, I would understand if they do not.
For contrast, other (lesser) countries HAVE "lost" wars due to changing government in wartime.
(At this point, I remember that like any good American, I forgot about Vietnam. Moving on...)

[Maximum Spin]

I would personally say that you absolutely must have the election, not just because, like EuchreJack mentions, the US always did, but also, if nothing else, to deny Russia the propaganda opportunity over the elections they just held.

[Starver]

Of course, Russia will expect to be involved in the process (as it has been in so many other external political systems, but probably even more so). That may well be the defining thing to account for, even more than 'just' being inclusive of the legitimate temporary-diaspora and allowing in-action troops to cast (and successfully return) their votes too.

[Egan_BW]

(At this point, I remember that like any good American, I forgot about Vietnam. Moving on...)

viet what now, never heard of it

[anewaname]

What does the average Ukrainian feel about Zelensky? And, what could the average Ukrainian blame on Zelensky that they could not blame on the Russians?

Most voters probably see a vote against Zelensky equal to surrendering to Russia and accepting the people-purges and police state that would follow.