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[Strongpoint]

There's this assumption going on here that when the Russians say <a number> with regard to the children, all of those were stolen from their parents at gunpoint. As if there was no pro-Russian sentiment in the occupied territories.

While it is true that a significant portion of those children was moved with parental consent and\or sincerely prefer Russia, the net effect is the same = those are children removed from the Ukrainian nation and moved to the Russian nation. And it is Russia who created the need to move by destroying their homes

They are failing to brainwash native Russian youth, a lot of teens and 20-ish people are against the war (because they spend time on Western internet), why would Ukrainian children be any easier to brainwash?

By brainwashing I mean not raising in a dominant Russian ideology, I mean erasing national identity. I fail to see how children younger than 7 can keep anything but some distant traumatic memories. Even for preteens it isn't that easy.

[jipehog]

There's this assumption going on here that when the Russians say <a number> with regard to the children, all of those were stolen from their parents at gunpoint. [..] Because those aren't growing up to want Ukrainian passports, internet access or not

True, but then your double booking them along with those who choose to take passports. Also worth noting that Russia occupation authorities pressure people to take Russian passports by setting them as perquisite to gain access to basic public services, which is rather effective for families with younger kids.

Also there is plenty of dissatisfaction in Russia already, people are afraid or know its no use to voice their opinion, and I am not certain that all of these kids from pro-Russia side after loosing their families, friends, homes everything they ever knew will choose the state narrative forced upon them blaming Ukraine for this unnecessary war of aggression, teen rebellion FTW.

[MaxTheFox]

They are failing to brainwash native Russian youth, a lot of teens and 20-ish people are against the war (because they spend time on Western internet), why would Ukrainian children be any easier to brainwash?

By brainwashing I mean not raising in a dominant Russian ideology, I mean erasing national identity. I fail to see how children younger than 7 can keep anything but some distant traumatic memories. Even for preteens it isn't that easy.

Fair enough. This country is fucked up.

[bloop_bleep]

There's this assumption going on here that when the Russians say <a number> with regard to the children, all of those were stolen from their parents at gunpoint.

Except, yes, that is almost entirely exactly what it is. If not outright kidnapped then kept indefinitely after they were supposed to be home. Do you actually think these Russians are running some sort of usual summer camp?

https://youtu.be/RNAAC1kX5kE

[Strongpoint]

There's this assumption going on here that when the Russians say <a number> with regard to the children, all of those were stolen from their parents at gunpoint.

Except, yes, that is almost entirely exactly what it is. If not outright kidnapped then kept indefinitely after they were supposed to be home. Do you actually think these Russians are running some sort of usual summer camp?

https://youtu.be/RNAAC1kX5kE

I made a mistake of reading comments under the video... Humanity is sick

[Grim Portent]

I made a mistake of reading comments under the video... Humanity is sick

I won't ask you to elaborate, I doubt it'd be good for my sanity.

Sadly I don't think there's going to be any real justice for the relocated kids. Some of them might manage to reconnect with their real family in future, modern communication techniques and genealogy tracking is good for that sort of thing, but my trust in Russia to provide anything even resembling an acceptable upbringing for a child, let alone a stolen child, is so low it's underground. Even the ones that turn out relatively well will probably have suffered myriad forms of neglect. I worry about how many are going to be sold to sex traffickers, or have their organs harvested.

[Il Palazzo]

Except, yes, that is almost entirely exactly what it is.

You have two numbers here: 19,5k and 700k. The former is Ukraine's government's number for those they consider illegally deported. The latter is the number Moscow recently said they're hosting. You can see the disjoint here, right? The 700k would include all the nominally Ukrainian children that on the outbreak of the full-scale war went with their willing, pro-Russian mothers, to Russia. Which was by far in the top destinations for refugees from the start, remember? These children were not stolen - their families always wanted to be Russian, thought of themselves as Russian, welcomed Russia, and thought they'd be better off in Russia.
So, in the context of those numbers, taken at face value - no, that is almost entirely exactly not what it is.

[bloop_bleep]

There's this assumption going on here that when the Russians say <a number> with regard to the children, all of those were stolen from their parents at gunpoint.

Except, yes, that is almost entirely exactly what it is. If not outright kidnapped then kept indefinitely after they were supposed to be home. Do you actually think these Russians are running some sort of usual summer camp?

https://youtu.be/RNAAC1kX5kE

I made a mistake of reading comments under the video... Humanity is sick

You should sort by Top, not by New.

Except, yes, that is almost entirely exactly what it is.

You have two numbers here: 19,5k and 700k. The former is Ukraine's government's number for those they consider illegally deported. The latter is the number Moscow recently said they're hosting. You can see the disjoint here, right? The 700k would include all the nominally Ukrainian children that on the outbreak of the full-scale war went with their willing, pro-Russian mothers, to Russia. Which was by far in the top destinations for refugees from the start, remember? These children were not stolen - their families always wanted to be Russian, thought of themselves as Russian, welcomed Russia, and thought they'd be better off in Russia.
So, in the context of those numbers, taken at face value - no, that is almost entirely exactly not what it is.

The circumstance of Russia being the most popular destination for refugees from the eastern regions is a little undermined by the fact that Russia blocked and/or bombed humanitarian corridors to western Ukraine.

All this about supposed longing for unification with the Russian Motherland that people in the eastern regions supposedly always felt themselves to be part of (and the thread follows, have been stopped by Ukrainian nationalists) is manufactured by the Kremlin. Even before the invasion in full scale, which I will remind you decimated the popularity of any remaining Russia-favoring political currents, only 22 percent of the Luhansk oblast favored reunification with Russia in 2021. https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88542 This is despite Russia-favorable informational restrictions put in place by the occupation. After the full-scale invasion, support for Russia evaporated in these regions.

The 700000 number, it seems, comes from an official pronouncement of the Kremlin and is likely made up to cast an image of themselves as saviors of children because their positions of moral reasoning are different from ours. Whatever the reason for Ukrainian children being sent to Russian camps, to say it is just because all their parents thought of themselves as Russian all along, is demonstrably wrong and is a dangerous attitude to have.

[Il Palazzo]

I'm not saying it's 'just' for that reason. Neither have I said people in the east of Ukraine all wanted to be part of Russia. Don't be constructing strawmen here.

[bloop_bleep]

I'm not saying it's 'just' for that reason. Neither have I said people in the east of Ukraine all wanted to be part of Russia. Don't be constructing strawmen here.

nominally Ukrainian children that on the outbreak of the full-scale war went with their willing, pro-Russian mothers, to Russia. Which was by far in the top destinations for refugees from the start, remember? These children were not stolen - their families always wanted to be Russian, thought of themselves as Russian, welcomed Russia, and thought they'd be better off in Russia. So, in the context of those numbers, taken at face value - no, that is almost entirely exactly not what it is.

No, you did say that most of the children leaving are leavig because their parents saw themselves as Russian.

[EuchreJack]

I'm not really sure what you two are arguing about, so maybe cut it out?

[Il Palazzo]

Eh, I was arguing the Russians didn't steal 700k Ukrainian children. It's my forever war against hyperbole.

[Egan_BW]

Probably only because russians exaggerated that number by a few orders of magnitude.

[Random_Dragon]

So either:
1. Russia inflated their figure with people who moved to Russia because Russia, i.e. the invaders, blocked every direction but into their country.
2. This is counting people returning back to Russia for any given reason total, which probably includes a good chunk of their dipshit tourists who thought that a warzone would be a great vacation spot (and probably counts them multiple times as they go vacationing in a warzone, realizing this is a bad idea, coming back, then their sense of pattern recognition fails to kick in...)
3. The kremlin pulled the number wholesale out of their ass because... (small penis compensation, probably)

Regardless of outcome, it's the Russian figure so should be taken with a whole mine of salt, regardless of exactly which manner the number's been doctored and why.

[Egan_BW]

The first two options don't seem necessary when they can just say any number. Did you know that you can just lie? It's easy actually.