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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 103192 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #180 on: March 25, 2023, 11:25:26 pm »

Ukraine will need more tanks and aircraft and troops. And ships. Need to take out the black sea fleet so Russia can't cut them off from the sea or protect Crimea from a counterinvasion

Ships require crew and Ukraine always had a token navy. There is no way that a proper navy can be created during a war, this process takes years. And you need to base ships somewhere and Russia has ability to strike Odessa\Mykolaiv with relative ease. No, ships are a bad idea. Naval drones are more practical solution


Also what Ukraine really needs is not troops, tanks, aircrafts... Ukraine needs ballistic and cruise missiles and permission to use those on targets in Russia destroying logistics and the ability to strike from across the border. But this is seen as an unacceptable escalation by our allies....
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #181 on: March 26, 2023, 09:50:25 am »

That's something I worry about too.  There has to be a breaking point even without that, but it's not at all clear to me where that is.

People keep throwing around the adage that manpower is cheap to Russia, and it's starting to seem that's true.  Again, there's an absolute limit on how many people they can waste.  I expect that Russian society would protest well before they literally get to the point that they can't get more people to throw at the war, but at what point?  250,000 KIA?  1,000,000?  More?  At what point does the future economic damage dissuade them if not the human cost?

Unless something drastic happens, like Putin dying and that miraculously leading to the new leadership calling everything off, I don't see this ending in the next few years.
There's also the factor that an outsized burden is placed upon ethnic minorities within Russia, and the sheer waste that is occurring as a result of all these men being killed for no reason / forced to flee abroad. It's fairly symbolic that a neurosurgeon was mobilised for example, and used as regular infantry, not even as a doctor. But because he's bashkir he's fair game to be used in suicidal attacks because he won't be missed in Moscow or St. Petersburg, despite the fact that such peoples will be sorely missed in Russia

Also what Ukraine really needs is not troops, tanks, aircrafts... Ukraine needs ballistic and cruise missiles and permission to use those on targets in Russia destroying logistics and the ability to strike from across the border. But this is seen as an unacceptable escalation by our allies....
This has always been a curious point for me, since I never really understood the American hesitance to allow long range weapon systems to strike targets in Russia even though it will be necessary to actually win the war. Ukrainians have already shelled Russian settlements like Belgorod so it's not like it would be radical for Ukrainian troops to cross the Russian border to exploit weaknesses or for railway lines/logistic hubs/naval & air bases to be struck. I suppose the big worry from top NATO generals would be - if Ukraine gains the ability to target Russian nuclear deterrence sites, are the Russians going to be able to distinguish between a cruise missile strike on an air base or a pre-emptive strike against a nuclear armed site?

The UK is odd in that the MOD says it won't rule out allowing strikes in Russia whilst the PM says its official stance is to "discourage" using British cruise missiles to strike Russia. I wonder how much of that is a hard red line or just a "you can strike Russia but we can't be seen to encourage this" posturing. It is probably also only a matter of time before the USA gives Ukraine cruise missiles, but I never can really predict what the Americans do. There is also talk of Ukraine manufacturing its own domestic cruise missiles, which it would be free to use however it wished, but I think that's just talk for now, or else is being kept secret because I can't find any reliable source confirming this is underway.

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #182 on: March 26, 2023, 10:16:23 am »

Quote
but I never can really predict what the Americans do

Pfff. It is easy.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. (I know that this quote is misattributed, but I still love it)
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jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #183 on: March 26, 2023, 10:33:01 am »

Ukraine will need more tanks and aircraft and troops.

According to Zelensky: "No Ukraine offensive without more weapons"

I don't know if it is true. But otherwise I heard that:
(1) Ukraine remained in Bakhmut is to keep Russia engaged, fearing that pulling out would lead to Russian operational stop like we seen northward.
(2) Ukraine will only have a chance for one counter attack in the near future.



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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #184 on: March 26, 2023, 01:52:35 pm »

Ukraine will need more tanks and aircraft and troops.

According to Zelensky: "No Ukraine offensive without more weapons"

I don't know if it is true. But otherwise I heard that:
(1) Ukraine remained in Bakhmut is to keep Russia engaged, fearing that pulling out would lead to Russian operational stop like we seen northward.
(2) Ukraine will only have a chance for one counter attack in the near future.

1) "We are totally not going to attack" is not something one should ever take seriously.

2) As far as I understand, the decision to hold Bakhmut is based on the idea that should Ukrainian forces fall back to another line of defense, there is a good chance that Russian forces wouldn't continue their advance and instead go into the rest, dig up and recover mode making future offensive harder.

3) I don't think that there is only one chance for a counterattack. Yes, delaying it will allow Russia to better prepare for defense but the opposite is also true. Anywhere from mid-April to mid-September is good weather for an attack

4) I am confident that there will be an offensive. We have no other choice but to rotate troops and it would be... weird to move in fresh troops and not attack when you face either exhausted enemy troops or their own rotation which is of much lower quality

5) What many Ukrainians overestimate is the scale of the offensive. Many here naively assume that we will push all Russian forces away in a few months which is... wishful thinking. I expect that there will be one main strike and several secondary ones and even if everything will go well, gains will be moderate, perhaps one important city like Melitopol or Berdyansk or even Mariupol

6) I won't be surprised if the offensive won't happen in April and will be delayed to May or June

7) Note that we will replace existing units with guys equipped with new hardware, decent training, and eagerness to fight. Russia will rotate in a mobilized, poorly-trained, and unmotivated mobilized crowd armed with various hastily refurbished Soviet stuff from stockpiles.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #185 on: March 26, 2023, 02:02:17 pm »

The context for the bit about one chance at an offensive that is being talked about is that the Western support might dry up when faced with little gains and nothing but a prolonged WWI-style slugfest in sight.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #186 on: March 26, 2023, 02:13:56 pm »

The context for the bit about one chance at an offensive that is being talked about is that the Western support might dry up when faced with little gains and nothing but a prolonged WWI-style slugfest in sight.

I seriously doubt that it will dry up completely. The western military-industrial complex is gearing up and rubbing its hands expecting profit. I doubt that their lobby will allow the support to go to zero. At the very least, ammunition-producing lines will keep working.

Note that the Russian ability to supply its troops isn't improving either. There is a finite amount of Soviet junk to refurbish.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #187 on: March 27, 2023, 08:42:26 pm »


The UK is odd in that the MOD says it won't rule out allowing strikes in Russia whilst the PM says its official stance is to "discourage" using British cruise missiles to strike Russia. I wonder how much of that is a hard red line or just a "you can strike Russia but we can't be seen to encourage this" posturing. It is probably also only a matter of time before the USA gives Ukraine cruise missiles, but I never can really predict what the Americans do. There is also talk of Ukraine manufacturing its own domestic cruise missiles, which it would be free to use however it wished, but I think that's just talk for now, or else is being kept secret because I can't find any reliable source confirming this is underway.

Ukraine has a number of indigenous weapons systems. Before the invasion, their Сапсан ballistic missile was scheduled to go into production in early 2022. While there's been no official announcement that the system is operational, it has been floated as a possibility for some of the mysterious explosions in Russian territory. There's also rumors that they're converting their successful Neptune shipkiller (which claimed Moskva) into something more suitable for ground attack.

It is very important to keep in mind that Ukraine's dependence on Western arms is not because they can't make their own weapons, or because their weapons suck. Most of their domestic weapons systems are as good as any non-American system in the same class. They just can't keep up with the needs of combat because combat is a black hole that consumes arms, lives, and treasure with a gluttony unsurpassed by any other human activity. No one is set up to replace weapons on the scale this war is using them, in large part because everybody assumed that a war like this can't happen in the modern world. Many western stockpiles are already being heavily depleted by the existing aid, and arms makers are undergoing their most rapid expansions in well over half a century as a result. The people who make NLAW, for example, are hoping (unless there's a dodgy translation in there somewhere) to make more NLAW missiles this year than were made in the previous fifteen years since it was first adopted.

Ukraine will need more tanks and aircraft and troops.

According to Zelensky: "No Ukraine offensive without more weapons"

I don't know if it is true. But otherwise I heard that:
(1) Ukraine remained in Bakhmut is to keep Russia engaged, fearing that pulling out would lead to Russian operational stop like we seen northward.
(2) Ukraine will only have a chance for one counter attack in the near future.

The Zelensky statement is contradicted by a lot of dialogue in open sources that strongly suggest an attack is building. Zelensky could have multiple reasons for taking a "certain point of view" approach here.

1. Operational security - Any offensive will be much more successful if the Russians don't have a confident idea where it will happen, when it will happen, and what forces will be used.
2. "No offensive" statements give a strong cushion for operational delays. If everybody's expecting an all-out assault as soon as the ground hardens, failure of that to materialize can cause morale to suffer at home and confidence to weaken abroad. There are a *ton* of reasons why  an assault can be delayed - bad weather that would hamper your attack, waiting for bad weather that will hamper your opponent, supply delays, a late desire to put even more of a rock into your fist, etc.
3. Ukraine needs more shit, and anything that can reasonably be used as a prybar is worth using.

If the assault goes off, he can always point to the last-delivered aid and say "those tanks/rocket launchers/artillery rounds were the aid I was talking about" to avoid loss of face.
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jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #188 on: March 28, 2023, 12:07:09 am »

There is also the Russian side, where there are growing talk of Ukrainian offensive and the need to prepare for it.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #189 on: March 28, 2023, 12:28:37 am »

Ukraine had a number of new weapon systems developed during 2014-2019 period but then Ukrainians elected idiots* who were like "all those weapons are useless corruption schemes and we'll find a diplomatic solution anyway" and all those systems that were at the prototype stage or close to it, got their funding cut or eliminated.

*if not worse
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #190 on: March 28, 2023, 05:18:56 pm »

Ukraine had a number of new weapon systems developed during 2014-2019 period but then Ukrainians elected idiots* who were like "all those weapons are useless corruption schemes and we'll find a diplomatic solution anyway" and all those systems that were at the prototype stage or close to it, got their funding cut or eliminated.

*if not worse
That's not very moist

That's not very moist at all

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #191 on: March 29, 2023, 12:35:54 am »

Ukraine had a number of new weapon systems developed during 2014-2019 period but then Ukrainians elected idiots* who were like "all those weapons are useless corruption schemes and we'll find a diplomatic solution anyway" and all those systems that were at the prototype stage or close to it, got their funding cut or eliminated.

*if not worse
That's not very moist

That's not very moist at all

Most Ukrainians are in the state of "you don't criticize your government during a war" but there will be many questions asked after it. And if Zelensky is likely to have a good political future thanks to his actions during the war, his party in the parliament...

But I don't even want to speculate about the possible post-war electoral situation, It will be utter chaos and I prefer not to think about the depths of political, economical, social, and demographic crises that will hit us as soon as war is over (or merely paused)
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #192 on: March 29, 2023, 03:03:27 am »

Ukraine had a number of new weapon systems developed during 2014-2019 period but then Ukrainians elected idiots* who were like "all those weapons are useless corruption schemes and we'll find a diplomatic solution anyway" and all those systems that were at the prototype stage or close to it, got their funding cut or eliminated.

*if not worse
That's not very moist

That's not very moist at all
How would being moist fix the problem though?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #193 on: March 29, 2023, 05:08:11 am »

Most Ukrainians are in the state of "you don't criticize your government during a war" but there will be many questions asked after it. And if Zelensky is likely to have a good political future thanks to his actions during the war, his party in the parliament...

But I don't even want to speculate about the possible post-war electoral situation, It will be utter chaos and I prefer not to think about the depths of political, economical, social, and demographic crises that will hit us as soon as war is over (or merely paused)
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How would being moist fix the problem though?
A moist war machine is a well lubricated war machine

Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #194 on: March 29, 2023, 07:23:32 am »

Most Ukrainians are in the state of "you don't criticize your government during a war" but there will be many questions asked after it. And if Zelensky is likely to have a good political future thanks to his actions during the war, his party in the parliament...

But I don't even want to speculate about the possible post-war electoral situation, It will be utter chaos and I prefer not to think about the depths of political, economical, social, and demographic crises that will hit us as soon as war is over (or merely paused)
Even if he didn't start the war playing the Churchill role, he has (to us Brits, and quite deliberately so) played that card during the conflict so far, and maybe he'll get the same post-war electoral result for his pains?

There could be worse results. It's not a bad resolution and legacy to take with him, winning the war but being gently elected out of power to become an honoured elder-statesman... Maybe he'll get back in, if he wants it, or maybe not and sit upon laurels that may well be entirely deserved.

(First things first, though. The country has to win, of course.)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 07:26:54 am by Starver »
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