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[Xombie]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Blue:
<STRONG>
Actually, no. Chain mail is useless without some kind of padding underneath. The poor man would go clothes -> thick cloth armor made of many layers of cloth sewn together -> chain. A knight, however, was rich, and could afford clothes -> plate (for padding) -> chain -> tabard with family crest/coat of arms.</STRONG>

If you dont know stuff - listen. I didn't ever say that somebody wears chain on naked body. It was common to wear chain over studded leather or some cloth dress(actually thick woolen armor you speak of was replaced with thinner and effective leather) and helmet over some fur or wool/multilayer cloth cap. There is possible some padding but nobody was using chain over solid plate armor. Its a nonsense.
Go enlighten yourself somewhere.

I tell you what. Even a full suit of plate had gaps and openings at the articulations, such as the arm pit or the inside of the elbow; else the wearer would be unable to move. So those gaps were covered with mail(or not). But if you wear chain OVER plate it would be quite pointless since its much easier to penetrate while its freely dangling over your plate armor.

However since end of XV full plate armor was used without chainmail. Thats because guns and crossbows became more powerful and popular and only 25kg plate could stop a bullet or bolt of that time and additional 8 kilo of chain would be too much. In XVI muskets were invented. They were able to penetrate plate armor at distance 240m. Also light agile fighters with swords designed specially to thrust and abuse armor gaps became effective way to deal with slow fully armored guys. So it was the end of medieval armor as we know it(along with so-called "middle ages").

[Xeirxes]

All I've seen is the Wikipedia article and some other sites on the internet, and some live swordfighting with full armor (Renaissance Faires) but it seems to me that they usually wear padding, chainmail, and then plate. Negating any sort of clothing of course. And boy, that chainmail is HEAVY. It's like 40 pounds, without the padding or the platemail. Crazy stuff.

[TerminatorII]

There were special Chainmail armors made for stopping arrows. They were usually about 2-3x as "dense" as normal.
Usually this was accieved by making the rings half as big, and instead of overlapping a ring with it's 4 neighbors, it would be interlocked with all 8 of it's neighbors. then riveted closed. Thus, making the armor nearly arrow proof, and also being INCREDIABLY heavy. (80+ lbs)

[Zomg]

It's called plate mail in the game, meaning plate and mail (I guess as opposed to true articulated plate armor). So, you're assuming one integral suit of mail to begin with, and you're sticking another one underneath it. I think that the weight usually ends up balancing things.

[Heliopios]

Actually, thisis what a plate mail is commonly like, because instead of smaller chains, it has plates that overlap is specific places in order to defuse shock from melee. While chainmail was  for keeping arrows from sticking into your body.

[Mylon]

Err, perhaps that codpiece is a little much?

[DR]

quote:Originally posted by Mylon:
<STRONG>Err, perhaps that codpiece is a little much?</STRONG>

I believe they're like that so that they can be removed easily. I'd imagine that wearing a suit of plate mail that doesn't provide easy lavatorial access wouldn't be pleasant.

[schnobs]

You should consider the posibility that this "codpiece" actually is part of the armor stand. Lighting isn't perfect, but I don't see such a thing on the armor on the wall.

Besides, it appears that these aren't actually "trousers" but... damn. Lacking the words again. It doesn't seem to wholly enclose crotch and upper legs, but looks as if it was a variation of the "skirt" theme as mentioned above.

[Xeirxes]

greaves?

[mineditall]

yes i noticed these problems too and figured heck if i can wear clothing under my armor why not eh?

and yes

[Tamren]

Chainmail is often worn against bare skin. In most cases it simply is not feasible to cover every surface with padding and then chainmail.

There is no "platemail" this is something perpetuated by popular fiction. There is a type of armour called "plated mail" but it is something else entirely.

Chainmail or "maille" was very popular because it defended against the kind of wounds the healers of that age could not treat. Infections caused by bacteria were not realiably understood.

The setting of broken bones was relativly simple, chainmail offers no protection against crushing attacks but would stop blades from cutting your skin.

Plate armour was very rarely worn over an entire suit of chainmail. It provides excellent protection yes, but no one ever won a swordfight by standing still. It weighed a crapton, so it was usually limited to mounted knights and even they needed a crane just to get onto the horse!

More common was incomplete suits of armour or platemail protected by patches of chainmail in critical areas such as the joints and under the armpits. For this purpose patches of chainmail were sewn onto the undergarment but i cant remember what they call it.

Gradually chainmail was phased out when the weapon technology of the day changed from mounted knights to firearms and pike squares. Chainmail is little use against a musket, what you need is the thickest plate armour you can get. Because it was so heavy little else was worn with it.

[Vanigo]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>It weighed a crapton, so it was usually limited to mounted knights and even they needed a crane just to get onto the horse!</STRONG>

That's kinda... not even remotely true. In fact, Wikipedia asserts the exact opposite.

[Tamren]

Um... even the article mentions that it did happen. Regardless it is not to be taken as historical fact without proof but it certainly makes sense.

Keep in mind that people in medieval times (and further back) did not have a very good diet. Mostly it was based on grain bread, and or potatoes. Because of that people were a lot smaller back then. You ate what you could get, not what composed a nutritiously balanced diet. The average roman for example, was much shorter then 6 feet.

Horses were even bigger back then than they are now because they were specifically bred for war. Horses nowadays are pretty much only bred for speed.

We can reasonably assume that not all knights would be able to climb into a very tall saddle. So what are you going to do about it? Leave him at home? Hell no!

[hactar1]

It's useless to argue about what people did if you don't specify when you're talking about.  Common practices and technologies changed drastically during the middle ages.  There were times when high-quality plate armor could only reliably be defeated spiked polearms, pikes, short-range crossbow bolts, or wrestling the knight to the ground and using a dagger to slip through the gaps in the armor.  And there were times in which even chainmail was so expensive that an entire village would pool its earnings over a year to buy a set for their patron knight.

Since this is a fictional game, it only makes sense to discuss what makes for the best gameplay.  I support layering, but no more than one chain or (maybe and) one plate piece per body part.  It is nonetheless reasonable to assume that under-layers of a suit of armor, such as the quilted doublet or chainmail joints, is included in the single in-game item.  Many graphical games (including the aforementioned Oblivion), even show these layers.  Just because the engine doesn't treat them as separate items doesn't mean it's supposed to be chafing metal against raw flesh.

[Tamren]

History lesson over then, in any case its not about argueing anything, more like who can make the better guess, history is like that.

Now for game terms, 2 identical items shouldnt be allowed. In this writup im doing i had a few ideas on this.

If you order a smith to make a set of leather or chain armour, he will come up with a full suit that fits onto one armour stand, any dwarf that needs it can come up and put the whole thing on and off they go. Leather can be buckled tighter and chainmail can be tied to make it fit bettet. Both are flexible, its okay if they fit a bit loose.

However platemail cannot be one size fits all, at least not most of the suit components. It has to fit right or it just wont work.

Later on in the game when you feel your dwarves need optimal protection and can stand the weight of plate armour. You can individually outfit a dwarf with armour build specifically to fit him.

In this way you have the option to customize your dwarfs and give them equipment to support that soldiers given role.

Platemail is expensive and probably wouldnt fit another dwarf if the owner buys the farm. So you would only give it to your most experienced soldiers. And they are the only people who could stand the weight in any case.