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Author Topic: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of AI Awareness  (Read 25188 times)

Starver

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2023, 03:38:39 pm »

I think they should have just found a way to pop/puncture the ballooon. Clearly the missile[1] struck and destroyed the payload, which already makes the analysis difficult. Fragmented all over the place at the moment of destruction, all the bits then tumbling down tens of thousands of feet with continuing horizontal motion (inertial and whatever aerodynamic random-walk they'd move around with), then hitting water hard, then (at least some bits) sinking.

Would have needed perhaps a hand-guided (or programmed visual-targetting system, like the autonomous impactor from the Double Asteroid Redirection Test) solution to puncture (ideally) or shred (most likely) the balloon canopy. Act as a streamer-chute, to a greater or lesser degree, as the (intact, at least at first, or at least mostly intact at first) payload stays (~)intact at least until hitting the water, tracked all the way to make for an easy single-spot (plus subsequent drift, based on currents and what bits float easiest) recovery mission.

I suppose the falling payload could be told to do a complete bitwipe (autonimously, or semi-autonomously via remote activation, as it was identified as now falling) that fragmented data-holding devices cannot be made to do. Any more than the various stages of physical destruction already do. But if I was a Chinese operator, in contact with it, I'd probably have remotely prompted it to obfuscate/forget all ELINT-type data well before it got 'safely' over the Atlantic. Depending upon what its True™ mission actually was, as to what actual point that would be (between being first detected and its ultimate demise), against the continuing usefulness of the mission.


In actuality, unless it is shown to have had significant horizontal[3] control/thrust, I can all too easily imagine it's just as the Chinese say and a passive (or at least non-military) atmospheric experiment gone adrift beyond where it was planned to investigate. Noting that a second one has been identified[4] going over the Caribbean/South America. Likely at least one of those is not where it was intended to go, unless they (and any others) are intended to form a 'chain' of coverage all the way across the entire Americas.


And who hasn't wondered if they can some day just release some arbitrarily-loaded balloon and see how far it would end up going? Or how high... But if you were Ok with keeping it well away from uncontrolled bursting, at the extremes of balloon-capable altitudes, and could keep it reasonably powered for arbitrary lengths of time (e.g. whacking great solar panels, refilling the batteries for the better part of half of every daylight cycle that passes) then perhaps you could indeed end up with something very like what they shot down. Which doesn't negate the possibility of a military/intelligence purpose... going horribly wrong or just-as-horribly right. And, unless the debris is an entirely unambiguous indicator that it's only a civil/sciency thing, we are only too easily left with (perhaps justifiably, like a 'stopped-clock') an amount of paranoia and accusative rhetoric in diplomatic circles.



[1] I heard "heat seaking" mentioned, but it would seem to me that a radar-locked one would have worked more assuredly (to get the result they did). Not knowing what sort of heat-profile the payload actually had, and no doubt prior investigations might have identified a nicely simmering object not actually so much like the ambient air it was in. But, sure as Betsy, it'd have chunks of metal (assuming not built with full-on stealth-tech[2], which I doubt) that show up well in a guidance module's logic circuitry...

[2] In which case they could have gone with diluted-airflow radiators to reduce its IR signature, too.

[3] Vertical control (as somewhat demonstrated before) can be used in combination with knowledge of various winds at various altitudes to expedite, linger and even steer a balloon's motion. And with remote control, rather than merely pre-'programmed' triggers of electromechanical responses to temporal and situational cues, you could possibly even tactically take advantage of developing information. But it's a poor replacement for blimp/semi-rigid/rigid aeronautics with significant ability to make a chosen headway (at least partially regardless of the wind) or somewhat maintain station-keeping as required.

[4] Whether only because of hightened awareness, I don't know. It could be that you can't not spot them, and there are indeed these two that have 'gone off-piste'. Or failed to complete some pre-programed descent phase before going beyond their intended scope.
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McTraveller

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2023, 04:14:32 pm »

You know we're in a strange world when, on a news site, the caption of video of the balloon being shot down is "Video appears to show China balloon shot down."

They can't even claim the video shows it - it just appears to show it.
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Thorfinn

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2023, 04:54:00 pm »

It's silly because of just how much of the US is actually just uninhabited wilderness.  I mean, randomly drop a school bus on the continental US and compute the odds of it hitting anything.  Now drop it not randomly, trying to avoid hitting anything - even if you get something like 10 miles of drift due to winds aloft.  I mean falling with a "slow" terminal velocity of 100mph is about 150ft/second, or 9000 feet per minute. 

This means even from 60000ft it would only take about 7 minutes to hit the ground, call it 0.1 hours.  Even if you had 100mph winds aloft the whole way down, that's a drift of only about 10 miles.

There are many, many places in the US where you have 400 square miles (20 miles x 20 miles) that are basically empty, drop it down in one of those.

Thus the assertion: It's a silly argument.
Yep. And we are talking Montana, which does not have enough population to get more than one representative. And, yet, the 4th biggest state?

Dropping a bus on someone in Montana is roughly the same odds as shooting into the air and the bullet hitting a hemophiliac named Seth.
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Telgin

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2023, 05:13:55 pm »

And yet, if by some freak chance a piece of debris hit and damaged something civilian, I'd be hearing "President Biden doesn't care what happens to any of us!  He'd probably bomb you right now if he wanted!" instead of "Our president's weak and waited days to shoot it down!"

Presumably the intelligence community thought there was no risk to letting it drift for a while before shooting it down over the ocean, but I doubt we'll ever get the full story.
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McTraveller

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2023, 05:20:45 pm »

You could always take the stance of the news agencies, and just say all photos and twitter comments and everything else just "appear" to be of a balloon - maybe it didn't really exist in the first place?  8)
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2023, 05:41:35 pm »

They'll bitch about it either way so functionally a moot point, yeah.
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Frumple

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2023, 07:19:01 pm »

Fundamentally, if there wasn't anything time sensitive about bringing it down, then there's zero reason to risk dropping it over populated land, however sparsely it was populated. It's fucking weird to even be considering it, ngl. If there's no reason to risk damage or death, there's no reason to risk damage or death. You don't roll the dice on dropping something on people's homes if you don't have to, regardless as to if it's a .01% chance or not. You can zero that chance without issue, then you zero that chance.
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Thorfinn

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2023, 07:30:06 pm »

And yet, if by some freak chance a piece of debris hit and damaged something civilian, I'd be hearing "President Biden doesn't care what happens to any of us!  He'd probably bomb you right now if he wanted!" instead of "Our president's weak and waited days to shoot it down!"

Presumably the intelligence community thought there was no risk to letting it drift for a while before shooting it down over the ocean, but I doubt we'll ever get the full story.
Sure, but the same would be true whichever way it turned out.

I don't pretend Biden did not face a "heads you lose, tails you lose" situation. That's probably true.

But the IC's opinion? Seriously? Does anyone with more than a room temperature IQ (Celsius) think the IC have any credibility? They were completely wrong on several instances, including Hunter's laptop. If you don't have some reason to believe them in in this case, and you believe them, you are a  ....
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Telgin

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2023, 10:30:06 pm »

The point being that a lot of people with more information than any of us evaluated the situation and decided that this was the best course of action.  So, the converse statement could apply here: none of us have any reason to believe we know better.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2023, 10:45:09 pm »

And yet, if by some freak chance a piece of debris hit and damaged something civilian, I'd be hearing "President Biden doesn't care what happens to any of us!  He'd probably bomb you right now if he wanted!" instead of "Our president's weak and waited days to shoot it down!"

Presumably the intelligence community thought there was no risk to letting it drift for a while before shooting it down over the ocean, but I doubt we'll ever get the full story.
Sure, but the same would be true whichever way it turned out.

I don't pretend Biden did not face a "heads you lose, tails you lose" situation. That's probably true.

But the IC's opinion? Seriously? Does anyone with more than a room temperature IQ (Celsius) think the IC have any credibility? They were completely wrong on several instances, including Hunter's laptop. If you don't have some reason to believe them in in this case, and you believe them, you are a  ....
What's the IC?
Haven't heard that acronym.

Fundamentally, if there wasn't anything time sensitive about bringing it down, then there's zero reason to risk dropping it over populated land, however sparsely it was populated. It's fucking weird to even be considering it, ngl. If there's no reason to risk damage or death, there's no reason to risk damage or death. You don't roll the dice on dropping something on people's homes if you don't have to, regardless as to if it's a .01% chance or not. You can zero that chance without issue, then you zero that chance.
The issue, of course, is whether everyone agrees there was no time sensitive reason to bring it down ASAP.
There lies the argument.

Frankly, I think the President did ok in handling this so far.  Hopefully it blows over...

Starver

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2023, 12:52:22 am »

But the IC's opinion? Seriously? Does anyone with more than a room temperature IQ (Celsius) think the IC have any credibility? They were completely wrong on several instances, including Hunter's laptop. If you don't have some reason to believe them in in this case, and you believe them, you are a  ....
What's the IC?
Haven't heard that acronym.
"Iringe County". Thorfinn  is clearly talking about a teen-drama series from the '00s, that's basically The Fresh Prince for white-folks and with marginally less chance for any character to break out in rap.

(Or, possibly/probably/hell-yes-of-course-I-was-trying-to-be-funny-just-above, "Intelligence Community". Which, like The O.C., sounds like a Fox Entertainment talking point, dragging in Hunter's laptop where there's no reason to do so. Biden's son's wayward laptop wasn't hanging from a Chinese helium balloon, and whatever the perceived failings of the 'authorities' (e.g. Twitter, which aint actually an Authority in any respect), there's no parallel at all with it just being a worn out conspiricist stick to drag out and try to hit the usual piñata target with at every opportunity. And "Biden's Laptop" is such a weaksauce event (it became a thing because the IC did not do much at all, it was mostly MM and SM (over-/under-)reaction that swung both ways at once), which just tends to make me laugh whenever I hear it dragged into an argument such as this, mostly out of pity.)

Frankly, I think the President did ok in handling this so far.  Hopefully it blows over...
It did blow over. Then they shot it down. ;)


...when I first heard of the balloon, I think it was over Montana (as pointed out effectively "miles and miles of nothingness") and speculation was about it being 'near' an air-force base, as a possible target for whatever nefariousness its nefarious nefariocity was aimed at. Except that always sounded to me like throwing a dart at a map of the US and going "it's nowhere interesting... except for being within a hundred miles of a place that was specifically built to be not within a hundred miles of anywhere interesting". Had the track done a grand tour of major US cities, by pure chance, it would doubtless have been interpreted one way. The track seemingly going over traditionally empty areas sparks the suspicion that we saw was sparked. Perhaps we'll only know for sure by comparing with its twin, and/or any further discovered instances, to truly find the more deliberate common factors to the chosen trajectories.

(If, indeed, there was any deliberation and choice involved, other than the generally inevitable East to West trajectory of various normal winds. Or if Hunter's cellphone is discovered to have been dangling from the second device, Hunter's Fitbit attached to a third, Hunter's secret ankle-tag to a fourth, etc...)
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King Zultan

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2023, 04:51:11 am »

You could always take the stance of the news agencies, and just say all photos and twitter comments and everything else just "appear" to be of a balloon - maybe it didn't really exist in the first place?  8)
It was just a weather balloon swamp gas, nothing to see here!
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EuchreJack

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2023, 09:21:51 am »

Point of Order: The Fresh Prince was for white folks in the 90s...

Starver

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2023, 10:47:03 am »

Ok, point taken. For ≠ About, gotcha.

And, going onwards from (or about!) that, the one in the '00s was for someone else, too!
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Magmacube_tr

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Re: Reactions to Chinese White Balloon of DEATH
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2023, 07:41:06 am »

I think there are more of them now?
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