Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: Steam: Labor  (Read 8247 times)

Erk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2022, 01:32:26 pm »

40d wasn't, 0.27 probably was but I wasn't even close to around for that, 0.31 was literally unplayable for a variety of reasons (melting dwarves, woo)

I'm probably remembering it worse than it was, but if you check the logs after Oct29 (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2007.html) there were quite a few serious crashes and they took longer to fix. I remember having a ton of trouble with CTD on embark initially for example. "Unplayable" is probably an exaggeration though, 2007 was a while ago now and I admit my memory is probably skewed.
Logged
'River' cancels eat: Food is problematic.

Xen0n

  • Bay Watcher
  • Took joy in ‼SCIENCE‼ lately.
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2022, 06:28:55 pm »

Just chiming in with my experience, though obviously it's quite a subjective thing.

I've only played since the 0.3x days, but have always done so with Dwarf Therapist, and never really liked DFHack's autolabor. I preferred the granular control of Therapist & creating custom professions, etc. and would enjoy figuring out where to sort each member of a migrant wave to use their talents best. However with the excitement for the Steam release I just couldn't wait and have been giving it a go anyways and I gotta say... at least personally, I think I actually prefer this system overall to using Therapist.

To be clear, I have complaints about the new labor system and Steam release in general: removal of "only dwarves above X skill level" option, not always listing all relevant skills / traits when selecting a dwarf (e.g. squads only show weapon skill, not amor/dodging/etc. Capt. of the Guard doesn't list social skills, etc.) a lot of menus I wish were searchable, or menus with dwarves listed where I wish I could click on a dwarf to see their stats page, really wishing there was a "cycle to next dwarf" button when viewing a dwarf's skills so I didn't have to jump in & out of the main unit list to hunt for a certain skill combination, burrows not able to designate more than 1 z-level at a time, no persistent event log, and more than I could list here.

However I consider all of that par for the course in terms of following a game like DF, hopefully some of those issues will get addressed after feedback, some might require modding to replace down the line, worst case some features will just be sorely missed, but the big thing for me is that even when Therapist comes out for the Steam version, I'm not sure I'm going to want to go back to it. It took a few days to wrap my head around the new labor system, but eventually after combining the default work details, setting workshop masters with a few extra workshops, using the specialization option on both certain work details and certain dwarves, and a few custom work details, I feel I generally have as much control as I used to. Or at least as much control as I wanted to? I haven't even made use of burrow restrictions in combination with all of this, which could add another layer on top, e.g. an "Mass production" burrow that only low-skill level dwarves are allowed in, to make sure any work orders on those workshops are things I don't care about quality for.

Using the workshop master + specialization on the dwarf in particular has been big for me, doing that is almost like setting a "mini-profession" without having to make a new work detail, since I know that dwarf will only work on the 1 or two things I have them set on, and I can control which work orders go to the shop they are master by setting its limits on general work orders. For skills that only use a single type of workshop, and that workshop is only used for a single skill, this has been great, E.G. a few kitchens & stills each with a master set who is "specialized", thus no need to make a cooking or brewing work detail. Or a metalsmith forge with a legendary weaponsmith set as the "specialized" master, set not to accept any general work orders.

Overall the way I'd describe things, at least how it comes across to me, is that the old DF + Therapist was sort of "High specialization, that you need to opt-out of if you don't want it". I.E. everything is very granularly controlled, and if you don't want each dwarf assigned to do very specific tasks, you would need to put in some effort to set things up differently, e.g. enabling a labor on all dwarves.
The new system I'd call something like "A very generalized, streamlined system, but you have the option to opt-in to high specialization for some or all aspects as you like". I.E. by default it just sort of makes sure everything gets done, whether or not its efficient or effective, which is probably great for new players but not what many veterans want. However when using enough of the new features you can get a ton of control back, in the aspects you want to.

I wonder if part of the issue is that veterans may see how the new system is set by default (super-streamlined) and assume that's the only way it can be used, without any options for fine control without making dozens of custom details like how you would use Therapist? Again, this is just my experience and not meant to take away from the many valid criticisms there are. I'm quite fortunate that most of the criticisms I have so far are things that don't happen to overly bother me much (or I've been able to tweak a bit with some modding).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 06:33:53 pm by Xen0n »
Logged

Bumber

  • Bay Watcher
  • REMOVE KOBOLD
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2022, 04:15:39 am »

Would prefer to set minimum skill rather than specific dwarf, because other dwarves can eventually acquire enough skill through guildhalls, and there's no sense leaving a magma forge idle just because the master is busy. (Even if we can assign extra dwarves, there's still a hassle of keeping that up to date with your skilled labor.)
Logged
Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Erk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2022, 02:53:07 pm »

I agree on the minimum skill thing, and it also seems to fit the model of "less micromanagement" that the game is going for, I'm sort of surprised it was a single dwarf as default for steam instead of proficiency.

Gotta say, had my first massive population explosion in the steam version yesterday and the new labour system made it far, far less painful than in new ones. I already had my skill-critical tasks blocked off so mostly the new people just moved in and started working without me doing much of anything.
Logged
'River' cancels eat: Food is problematic.

Immortal-D

  • Bay Watcher
  • [Not_A_Tree]
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2022, 03:04:41 pm »

I'd be fine with the current Steam system if I could actually save my custom job groupings between Forts.  Needing to rewrite that every time is a royal pain.

EmperorCoolidge

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2022, 03:35:09 pm »

I'd be fine with the current Steam system if I could actually save my custom job groupings between Forts.  Needing to rewrite that every time is a royal pain.

Yeah biggest QoL improvements would be saving custom details, selectable detail icons, viewing (editing?) default details, and minimum skill levels.

But so far I've found that in most situations I spend a lot less time messing with labors while have a lot more control over individual dwarfs.
Logged

Erk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2022, 03:37:36 pm »

I'd be fine with the current Steam system if I could actually save my custom job groupings between Forts.  Needing to rewrite that every time is a royal pain.

I don't have nearly enough details to want that, but I agree it should be a thing along with (more important imo) being able to export and import lists of standing job orders. One of the things that has limited my fortress ADHD is having to redo thirty basic standing orders every time.
Logged
'River' cancels eat: Food is problematic.

Cespinarve

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lege lege lege relege labora et invenies
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2022, 09:31:53 pm »

40d wasn't, 0.27 probably was but I wasn't even close to around for that, 0.31 was literally unplayable for a variety of reasons (melting dwarves, woo)

0.31 broke the military so badly I insist it still doesn't work as it should and that was 13 years ago.

(I mean yes, you have more control now that you did in 40d but 40d just let you et-it and forget-it, and tht was pretty great in its own right.)
Logged
Nice one, not sure when I'll be feeling like killing a baby but these things are good to know.
This is why we can't have nice things... someone will just wind up filling it with corpses.
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what's incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here."

Salmeuk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2022, 10:45:48 pm »

40d wasn't, 0.27 probably was but I wasn't even close to around for that, 0.31 was literally unplayable for a variety of reasons (melting dwarves, woo)

0.31 broke the military so badly I insist it still doesn't work as it should and that was 13 years ago.

(I mean yes, you have more control now that you did in 40d but 40d just let you et-it and forget-it, and tht was pretty great in its own right.)

nice memory. honestly, yeah - that version's update flooded the forums with complaints about the complexity and whatnot. it was criticized as an overburden of control. in a lot of ways, that military menu was about as complex as the rest of the game UI combined.

but after playing with it for years? that level of control was nice to have.

I think this labor update would have splashed better if Tarn warned us that design would be removing player control, intentionally. certain blog updates suggested this was coming but there was no explanation provided for this change of systems, which put a bad taste in many player's mouths - loss of control (or an increase in the burden of implementing that control) in such a complex game is akin to a loss of gameplay functionality.

basically, in previous fortresses I have played, each dwarf was given custom selection of labors that defined their particular role. this was not an attempt to min-max, as some have suggested, but instead a further definition of those characters and their status within the fortress..... and now I would need a huge number of custom details to account for these narrative based classes, if I was to emulate that level of control I had previously established. which is deeply frustrating.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Logged

Putnam

  • Bay Watcher
  • DAT WIZARD
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2022, 06:03:24 am »

I think this labor update would have splashed better if Tarn warned us that design would be removing player control, intentionally. certain blog updates suggested this was coming but there was no explanation provided for this change of systems, which put a bad taste in many player's mouths

This is simply false. This post from August 2021 fully explained the labor system and all of the loss of control therein. Nothing was hidden here. I don't think they should be blamed for something they didn't do.

Raven

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2022, 06:27:06 am »

guys... let's be honest

is the game become unplayable? no, I don't think so

is the labor system causing groundbreaking issues? no but i understand some has something to say about it

I think we should just adapt, it's not the first big change in this game under development

i cried more when they forced the boulder spawn at 25% no matter the mining skill
Logged
http://dwarffortressitalia.tumblr.com/

Italian blog about Dwarf Fortress

Il primo blog italiano su Dwarf Fortress

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2022, 06:44:38 am »

I think this labor update would have splashed better if Tarn warned us that design would be removing player control, intentionally. certain blog updates suggested this was coming but there was no explanation provided for this change of systems, which put a bad taste in many player's mouths

This is simply false. This post from August 2021 fully explained the labor system and all of the loss of control therein. Nothing was hidden here. I don't think they should be blamed for something they didn't do.
Yeah. I spent the past three years doing completely different stuff away from Df, checking in from time to time to see if Steam was any closer and the real development could start back up again. And even so,  I saw on several occasions Tarn explaining the system. To say he "suddenly" dropped it without notice is just a lie.

And I also noticed several posts here and at Reddit of people in complete delusion that an official Dwarf Therapist was coming to DF. So, kind of inevitable this would happen.

So glad Tarn stuck to what he wants the game to be anyway. Need a few extra bits and pieces in the interface, sure. But not a switch to spreadsheet management (which the DfHack guys will have up and running for you all at some point soon anyway).
Logged

Afghani84

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2022, 06:46:25 am »

Yeah biggest QoL improvements would be saving custom details, selectable detail icons, viewing (editing?) default details, and minimum skill levels.
+1
Logged

Raven

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2022, 06:04:53 am »

This is simply false. This post from August 2021 fully explained the labor system and all of the loss of control therein. Nothing was hidden here. I don't think they should be blamed for something they didn't do.

congratulations for the promotion

now that you are a noble we can complain and scream at you and you will listen to us and we will both have happy thoughts

plz give us the announcements log button :(
Logged
http://dwarffortressitalia.tumblr.com/

Italian blog about Dwarf Fortress

Il primo blog italiano su Dwarf Fortress

Salmeuk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam: Labor
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2022, 10:44:22 am »

I think this labor update would have splashed better if Tarn warned us that design would be removing player control, intentionally. certain blog updates suggested this was coming but there was no explanation provided for this change of systems, which put a bad taste in many player's mouths

This is simply false. This post from August 2021 fully explained the labor system and all of the loss of control therein. Nothing was hidden here. I don't think they should be blamed for something they didn't do.

Quote
It was very, very clunky, to the point that many people preferred working with a gigantic spreadsheet, but the ability to set custom labors is powerful as well, so it's important to recapture while trying to avoid making the system too laborious.

yeah, fair, I honestly just forgot about that post. but i guess this is the part of this I would like to highlight. "important to recapture" yes. %100. %1000. I sort of trusted the process and it didn't work out as I had expected... the game is slow to interact with now, and that's way worse of a barrier for um certain people who hate slogging around a mouse cursor. keyboard cursor has issues with designating constructions.

surprised player controlled auto-selection of material failed to make it in? hopefully a stretch feature, it's a no-brainer

 so I dunno, I would appreciate it if the discussion were to continue without trying to shut people down by calling them liars?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
if you have an issue with my tone, well, just take a quick look at the steam threads for an example of how much less polite people can be.

the newly released classic version has many of the same issues mentioned previously in the thread (if not more) but hopefully those get smoothed out as the year ends. smoothing designations not appearing, no zoom feature, garbled text - and I'm surprised at how much of a throwback it is with non-square ACSCII. even the world map loses detail akin to the 2d version. nice new default color schema, however.

community to the rescue...

Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6