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[Thorfinn]

But whatever downstream effects there are are not known. You can assert that there are observed differences between cis female and cis male brains without also claiming that women are naturally and permanently worse, or "intended" for particular tasks. The first does not actually provide evidence for the second.

The flip side is also true. Since potential downstream effects are not known, there is no rational way to say whether membership in some arbitrary group does not make one better or worse at any given task.

The only way something this complex could be worked out is through experiment. If some arbitrary demographic is irrelevant to the task, then any company that "discriminates" is by definition hiring someone well less suited, which eventually shows up if it's a significant difference.

And we already do this to some extent. No one complains if a firm hires all women, or all Africans, or a handful of other cases, certainly including gay, and probably soon, trans. What is not permitted is to make a control group so we can test our hypotheses of whether brain differences also have cognitive or performance differences.

[Thorfinn]

But those are physical disabilities, and legislation was passed requiring businesses to make reasonable accommodation. To the best of my knowledge, that was only applied to a few mental disabilities, and only at the margins.

It is not what I meant. With almost any job, people with certain disabilities will be worse (on average) but no sane employer will go for something like - "you know deaf people are on average worse at doing this job and I don't give an F about your actual skills. Go away.". Doing this will be outright discrimination.

It is like denying a woman a physical job even if she is far stronger than an average female, meets the requirements, and is no worse or even better than other available candidates.

Regardless, should we be be drawing on a precedent that relies on categorizing having a trans brain as being disabled? 

Hey! Don't put words in my mouth. Especially something so... gross. I used disabilities as an example that even if we know that category X is (on average) worse at doing task Y, hiring not on the basis of the merit of an individual is still discrimination.

Why the extreme emotional response to discrimination? By choosing to be with Mrs. Thorfinn, I discriminate against all other potential mates, male, female, furry, whatever. I'm dead certain we all do this. I don't know anyone who objects on general principle to people hanging out with people they like. Why in this case?

[Strongpoint]

Why the extreme emotional response to discrimination? By choosing to be with Mrs. Thorfinn, I discriminate against all other potential mates, male, female, furry, whatever. 

You are using this word in a very loose way.

to discriminate

to treat a person or a particular group of people differently, especially in a worse way from the way in which you treat other people, because of their race, gender, sexuality, etc.:

[Vector]

As a request, if we want to have an "arguing about the existence of LGBTQ people" thread, a topic which has been previously banned on the forums (along with fanfiction. sorry y'all), maybe that should be in a different thread.

[Rolan7]

Aw what, fanfiction?  Are we not supposed to talk about Star Wars fanfics with queer characters? D:

[Maximum Spin]

[thicker corpus collosum in women]

I just want to say that this is heavily disputed and seems to be based on studies with a very low sample size, with the original analysis having an n of 14. Results since then have occasionally gone either way, and, while it's true that the largest study I know of found a difference, their result on the full set of 316 subjects was only significant at an IMO inadequate P<0.03 level. I think it's best to characterize this difference as unclear.

While I'm on the subject, it's also my understanding that the previously mentioned findings of transgender individuals having brain anatomy consistent with the gender identity have generally failed to replicate (eg, this example also has a good review of the status of the field); it seems like the scientific consensus on the topic is currently weakly on the side of brains clustering mostly by assigned sex.

[Thorfinn]

Why the extreme emotional response to discrimination? By choosing to be with Mrs. Thorfinn, I discriminate against all other potential mates, male, female, furry, whatever. 

You are using this word in a very loose way.

to discriminate

to treat a person or a particular group of people differently, especially in a worse way from the way in which you treat other people, because of their race, gender, sexuality, etc.:

No, I did that. I decided to exclude from the set of prospective Mrs. Thorfinns all people with male genitalia. I also excluded all over the age of 40, all who were already married, etc. During college, I chose to spend most of my time around other science and engineering types. Yes, I discriminated against all those who were matriculating at the cosmetology institute down the street. 

At least I'm assuming that's how one would interpret things. If by "discriminating" I made some worse off because they did not have the pleasure of my company, well, and? Don't we all?

Vector, this isn't about some right to exist. I only read back a few pages, but it seemed if anything everyone was opposed to any eugenics or even conversion therapy. Please don't go overboard. You asserted that there were differences in brain, but we don't know whether or not that has downstream effects. Agreed. But that means we don't know whether there are downstream effects, not that we must assume there are none unless proven to some arbitrary standard.

BTW, I'm not saying there are morphological differences  in the brain. I don't know, and, frankly, don't care. I'd much rather evaluate someone on his actual performance, not because of some alleged difference to which his demographics makes him more prone.

[EuchreJack]

I'm reminded now of how little the medical community actually understands the human brain. So, what is the point of this conversation?

[Strongpoint]

IMO, from an evolutionary standpoint, it is extremely unlikely that male and female brains are identical. Selective pressure is a mighty force and why would human brains be spared from it?

Sadly, it is a part of science in which too many people want confirmation for their preconceived notions, not the truth.

[MorleyDev]

Evolution is also statistical and a great compressor of information, so it's also possible any differences in a species with already strong selective pressures for males and females to be able to do similar tasks would be minor. Excessive variation takes more energy, if it's not worth the energy for reproductive advantage it won't get selected for. Meaning the outcome for the evolutionary process could very well be:
a) Reduced to the minimum needed to produce a reproductive benefit.
b) Emergent in large groups but rather poor for understanding individuals who are still likely to run the whole gambit of human variation.

It's like, the average woman could be one standard deviation worse than the average man at throwing rocks but...well, that doesn't tell you much about how good I am at throwing rocks as an individual*. Which puts it more in the category of "huh, interesting" rather than any kind of modern societally defining information. And when working with a limited sample size of "people near you who you can find to throw some rocks", you wouldn't want to exclude all the woman on that basis either, since you're still gonna find a good chunk of higher-than average rock throwers. And outside of people who've spent their whole life pushing themselves to the far far end of that bell curve of rock throwing, it's probably not gonna be a very big difference in the size of the two groups.

* I'm very bad at it, my dominant arm is hyper-extended so an overarm throw tends to result in a pop-out.

---

Another issue with researching gender identity and brains I can see is that consciousness and self-perception isn't exactly something we've found a "spot" for in the brain as far as I know, it's appears to be one of those 'emergent propeties' where it's just a result of a bunch of unrelated stuff happening to mix together in a way that produces it. So even if there is something in the structure that creates that mixing that produces a perception of oneself as a different gender to their biological sex, it's not like that's something you can point at in the brain and say "it's this". So whilst discussing the potential for a link is philosophically interesting and may be an exploratory method to help 'confused' cisgendered people get that foot into 'groking' it by bringing up the potential (so long as framed to not lead to the 'problem to be fixed' misconclusion), it's not exactly easy to research beyond "huh there's this statistical correlation but it's not a guaranteed thing" which...again, falls into the "huh interesting" category of facts.

Statistics are hard, large scale emergent properties are useless to individuals, you'll never know if anybody but you is truly conscious, and we all die cold and alone. At least that's what I tell myself every night

[MaxTheFox]

Bruh.

[Great Order]

Yeaaaaah I'm gonna say nip this conversation in the bud. This thread's for discussing being any of the letters, not discussing whether they exist. That way lies anger, flames, and Toady.

[GadgetPatch]

Spoiler: EDIT: This is mostly just saying the same thing again. (click to show/hide)

Like I said a few pages back, there's plenty of interesting and unexpected research into variances in the neurobiology of cishet, cis gay, and trans populations. It's a bit of a special interest for me, but the parts we have strong theoretical framework for are neat and beautiful too.

But that said, the vibes on that topic got rancid enough that I've felt uncomfortable to go on any more?

Once that conversation pivots into eugenics debates, or fuels a mildly transphobic screed about protecting queer kids from themselves, I think maybe this isn't the place for that conversation.

I'm fascinated by the behavioral biology of sex and attraction, and all the beautiful little intricacies that help make us Us. But there's queer folk trying to celebrate their experiences and joys here, that are being talked past. And that seems like a shame.

[MorleyDev]

I apparently count as queer according to some because I'm asexual, so my queer experience is mostly defined by a lack of experience xD Cuddling is fucking awesome though.

Plus Sister having had a child has shut down the "but I want graaandchiiildddreen" from my mother. So that's nice. Because...no, not happening. Eww. Still get the occassional "but you'd be such a good father" or "maybe you'll meet someone with kids!" but like...I like being an Uncle. You get to give him back. Can't do that with your own kid...

(Well I guess technically you can but... xD)

[GadgetPatch]

Hey, ace solidarity. Not in a sex-repulsed way for me, though; it's fun as play or bonding when I'm close to a friend, but I'm pretty fulfilled with just romantic bonds.

I'll never be able to get my head around what people mean when they say something or someone is hot, though. I get it, intellectually, but I don't *GET* it. Beep boop, does not compute. Like I've got a sense missing!