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Author Topic: LGBTQ+ Thread  (Read 78214 times)

Great Order

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #255 on: December 31, 2022, 08:34:09 pm »

Sorry to hear that Vec, wish there was something to say that'd fix it but I know there isn't. You'll have to make do with knowing I'm here, supporting you from across the ocean.
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ixn

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #256 on: January 02, 2023, 09:01:26 am »

hello thread! i'm a transfem who just barely made it out of the Deep South thanks to some pals across the country. :')
i haven't already celebrated that with enough people so i'm posting here!
i've almost finalized all the moving related junk you run into in the US, including getting on the state's medicaid (and then i'll be setting up with an LGBTQ-positive nonprofit clinic)
transitioning even "just" socially has felt pretty rewarding on its own, i think i'm ok seeing myself as kinda butch? but i feel much freer to experiment and find what i'm comfortable with now that i'm in a safer and more left-leaning area of the country.
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voliol

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #257 on: January 02, 2023, 11:46:04 am »

hello thread! i'm a transfem who just barely made it out of the Deep South thanks to some pals across the country. :')
i haven't already celebrated that with enough people so i'm posting here!
i've almost finalized all the moving related junk you run into in the US, including getting on the state's medicaid (and then i'll be setting up with an LGBTQ-positive nonprofit clinic)
transitioning even "just" socially has felt pretty rewarding on its own, i think i'm ok seeing myself as kinda butch? but i feel much freer to experiment and find what i'm comfortable with now that i'm in a safer and more left-leaning area of the country.

Congratulations on making it out, in both the moving sense and the social transition sense! And welcome to this part of the forum :)

Vector

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #258 on: January 02, 2023, 01:36:14 pm »

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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

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Great Order

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #259 on: January 04, 2023, 12:12:27 am »

Anyone who uses oestrogen patches find that the skin around the patch has gone super soft?

I don't know if this is my body reacting to it in some odd way or if it's that the skin in the area's getting a super dose and softening up way faster than the rest of my skin.
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I may have spent too long in darkness
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Rose

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #260 on: January 04, 2023, 02:35:58 am »

That's what Estrogen does.
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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #261 on: January 04, 2023, 09:15:40 am »

People talk about the effect being localized but I sorta thought it was just talk.  Some people want to pick-and-choose their effects with a combo of T & E.  Anyway, interesting!

I don't know much about patches/gels but I'm sure you're getting a general dose as well.  I feel like my skin got a bit softer, but mainly it got less greasy!  So that's awesome, you've already got a visible effect :D
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Great Order

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #262 on: January 07, 2023, 12:10:49 am »

So, first effect aside from localised softness is that my skin in general seems to be getting softer and more fragile. Found out about the latter because in Jitsu I got matburn way easier.
EDIT: Apparently I shouldn't be seeing that effect yet, actually. Might just be wishful thinking on my part.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 12:22:12 am by Great Order »
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I may have spent too long in darkness
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Vector

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #263 on: January 08, 2023, 04:58:09 am »

If people haven't seen this microfiction yet somehow, it's sweet.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

alway

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #264 on: January 08, 2023, 11:49:46 am »

Oh, is it queer fic time? Have a few others.

My favorite fic (it is A Lot, mind the tags/CWs inside)
https://archiveofourown.org/works/32378017

https://m.webtoons.com/en/challenge/with-great-abandon/list?title_no=55067&page=1&webtoon-platform-redirect=true
Cute webcomic about some gays

https://archiveofourown.org/works/16358996
Another of my favorites from ao3; sad/ambiguous end
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McTraveller

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #265 on: January 09, 2023, 09:57:13 pm »

Question here because it's definitely more broad than Ameripol:

What's the modern take on use of language like "gender assigned at birth" versus simply "gonads observed at birth."  Or more generally - is gender so closely tied with gonads and other presentation?

Or is gender orthogonal to primary and secondary sexual characteristics?  Or is it sometimes orthogonal and sometimes linked?

Or the ultimate extreme - does gender matter anyway? If so, why? If not, why do we make such a big deal about it? What does "getting gender wrong" actually mean, aside from side effects like in most cultures a history of oppressing the feminine?

My very naive fundamental question: if being a woman isn't related to bearing children, and being a man isn't related to siring children, just what is gender anyway?
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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #266 on: January 09, 2023, 10:41:45 pm »

To be hyper-specific they observe genitals at birth, not gonads.  Sometimes that's an important distinction, which leads into why we say "gender assigned at birth".  That does assume the child is cis... because that's what people usually do, at least for now.

It's a lot to get into, but sex isn't a simple binary.  You've probably heard of intersex people, but you might not know how common intersex situations are.  1.7% according to Google, which sounds low- but is a lot more likely than sharing a birthday with someone.
Sex is often described as bimodal for that reason, which I understand to mean "There are two sets of of traits, but people have a mix of those traits".

Gender is indeed orthogonal to those traits.  I personally take a rather absolute position that there is no inherent link between sex and gender.  Gender is ENTIRELY socially constructed.  When a culture recognizes two genders, which is common but not universal, those have (AFAIK) always been associated with the two sex-categories.  Very roughly, male and female people are labeled men and women.

And that categorization certainly matters!  More than I'd personally like, that's for sure, though I've been confusedly agender most of my life.  Our cultures put a great deal of importance on gender, perhaps as much as other categories like race and economic class.

A child is taught these social constructs of "man" and "woman" and, for very complicated reasons we don't yet understand, tends towards one (usually) VERY early in development.  That is a positive reaction to a cultural category.  For example, choosing combat-figures over domestic dolls.  Notably this response is limited by the options offered- options which are a result of culture, usually a gender binary.

Of course many people aren't ever offered this choice.  They are given toys according to their sex, perhaps scolded for going after the wrong toys.  But given enough freedom we see some kids express preferences that go against our expectations.  This is consistent with my theory.  The gender they're gravitating too is probably not a *perfect* fit, but gender never is - it's a choice between the options offered by culture.

Note that gender options vary EXTREMELY by culture.  The meaning of "man" and "woman" vary wildly based on time, location, and economic class.  A medieval male serf is more similar to his wife than he is to his feudal lord.  There are physical differences - sex is real, if not purely binary- but gender?  The roles we play in society?  Gender is COMPLICATED.

Okay I've rambled enough, what was your last question...  Oh, easy
In all our cultures to my knowledge, women are still women if they're infertile.  We can imagine a culture wherein all (adult) men can fertilize, all women can be fertilized, and everyone else is of a third gender.  Heck, we've observed that in history - eunuchs are described as distinct from men and women.  Holy virgins and unmarried midwives might be similar.

So clearly it isn't really about fertilizing and being fertilized.  There's simply more to it than that!  It's a very complex and changing social categorization.
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Strongpoint

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #267 on: January 09, 2023, 11:36:32 pm »

My very naive fundamental question: if being a woman isn't related to bearing children, and being a man isn't related to siring children, just what is gender anyway?

Below may be a controversial opinion disliked by many on different sides

Take the word "Asian"  What does it mean? It looks like a very simple question, but... There are so many ways to define it - being born in Asia, being a citizen of an Asian country, residing in Asia for most of your life, having a specific appearance, following certain culture, etc. And most of these definitions are vague.

It is the same when you go for the words woman or man. Like one religious fascist is asking on youtube "What is a woman?"  Woman by sex, by gender, by social role? Answers will differ. I'll be honest, I dislike the mutation of the English word gender because it creates confusion in an already complicated matter, and simply inventing a new word would be better but... this can't be changed and we are stuck with the word people define differently and it causes issues.

Here is my definitions (other people have different ones.)

Sex is a matter of biology. What the body is. Evolved biological differences. Problem is, with evolution being a mess, whatever way you'll define sex (genitals, chromosomes, ability to produce eggs\sperm, whatever) there will be people who can't be clearly defined

Gender is... also a matter of biology and is directly linked to sex. Just like human bodies are sexually dimorphic, our minds are also sexually dimorphic. Women and men have different brains and different hormones, and we have evolved different behavioral patterns. Simple example: aggressive\reckless men procreate more and aggressive\reckless women die before giving birth. Clear evolution pressure

But again, it is a mess... Those parts of our body (or rather entire systems) that determine our behavior may not match "the norm" for the rest of the body. It is also always a spectrum and beyond our ability to measure and quantify.   

Then there are also gender roles. Those are determined by culture. They also evolved (but not biologically) with the starting point being biology. It is what society deems appropriate for each gender. Many, many people call this gender, and here comes "gender is a social construct". I think it is a bunch of bullcrap that denies observable biological reality. Also, saying that implies that culture makes someone transgender playing right into the hands of bigots - "if you will raise children a certain way, they'll become socially constructed as transgenders. If children will be exposed to LGBT propaganda they'll also become transgenders"
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #268 on: January 10, 2023, 12:28:09 am »

A child is taught these social constructs of "man" and "woman" and, for very complicated reasons we don't yet understand, tends towards one (usually) VERY early in development.  That is a positive reaction to a cultural category.  For example, choosing combat-figures over domestic dolls.  Notably this response is limited by the options offered- options which are a result of culture, usually a gender binary.

Of course many people aren't ever offered this choice.  They are given toys according to their sex, perhaps scolded for going after the wrong toys.  But given enough freedom we see some kids express preferences that go against our expectations.  This is consistent with my theory.  The gender they're gravitating too is probably not a *perfect* fit, but gender never is - it's a choice between the options offered by culture.
I'm always curious about statements like these.

I wasn't raised this way. I was always allowed to choose my own toys as I wanted, my choices were according to my mood without worrying about gender (even the toys I was given when I was too young to pick them out, which are still boxed up in my childhood home somewhere, follow no particular pattern), and nobody ever told me that some things were for boys and other things were for girls. We didn't have cable when I was young, so I didn't see a lot of advertising, but when I did, I never really thought much about whether things were depicted with boys or girls since I already had the impression that it didn't matter. In my upbringing, it was very firm that being a boy or a girl was a matter of equipment and didn't have any bearing on what you could do, how you could dress, your personality, or... well, anything that wasn't covered by a swimsuit.
The adults around me also clearly modelled this attitude - if anything, I knew more female hunters, sports fans, factory workers, smokers, beer swillers, breadwinners, etc. than male. I don't even think I saw a skirt before kindergarten where some of the female teachers wore them, and by then it was already impossible for me to think about it as a gender thing... it just seemed like they were for silly, impractical people. Needless to say, I had more or less the same numbers of male and female friends and nobody ever objected to this or told me I should think anybody had cooties, including the other kids. (I didn't even hear of that concept at all until I was a teen.) And overall, the idea that liking X or doing Y makes you a boy or girl (or not a boy or girl) isn't something I had heard of until I saw it on the internet as an adult. Honestly, I still don't really understand it and I just think of people as people.

Well, I don't really have any point, but I wanted to share.
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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #269 on: January 10, 2023, 01:10:43 am »

I don't remember my life before school very well, but I think it was similar in some ways?  We lived remotely and my parents were pretty egalitarian about stuff.  For some of the time my dad was home more than my mom, early computer job, despite us being in the middle of some woods.

But like, I'd visit my mom's friend's kids.  And watch Sesame Street.  I had strong androgynous women in my life, but I also had my hyper-feminine aunts and rugged farmer men.  Gender was everywhere, enough that even I saw it.

Hm, there was this one PE teacher in like 2nd grade.  I never could figure out their gender.  I was already kinda aware that I was... unable to see certain social things other people see, so I never asked.  It sorta bugged me but it was just one unimportant thing in a long list of such things.

Me, I was just me.  I kinda liked dolls sometimes and maybe I liked the wrong TV shows but that was just me being stupid "special" different I guess.  People reacted poorly so I adjusted.  I learned what I was supposed to do, and eventually got pretty good at it, usually.

Anybody can say "I was just me" but not everybody had to work so hard to figure out what that meant.  Some people fit in easier.  I don't know where I belonged.  I don't think I fit in the "opposite" slot, but that's just a theory.

That PE teacher... and later in 6th grade, a classmate.  On the day we'd never see each other again I asked him "You're a guy, right?".  I should have been sure from listening in on conversations, but it's so frustrating how rarely people use names and pronouns when you want them to.  And some information slips my memory so easily, like faces and names.  Anyway, he looked so confused... I assumed he'd be mad.  That's what happens when you question a guy's masculinity, right?  But it wasn't anger.  I don't know what it was- of course I didn't.  I don't know if he was trans in 1997 or just knew that I was seriously asking.  Either way, he was a boy.  That was that.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 01:12:31 am by Rolan7 »
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No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.
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