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[Strik3r]

Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.

Why? according to her, if you don't pound hateful facist bigots into the ground until their bodies and spirits are broken, the hate they spew will spread and fester.
She simply has neglected to think that this might apply to herself as well.
It is often the case that those who call for a lynching will end up hanged with the same noose they intended for others.

But not all the world believes that.  There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview.  The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

There is no excuse for hate, no matter where it comes from.

Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.

Then why even try? Why not just remove her from the discussion, and preferably, the forum? It'd be perfectly in line with her personal beliefs, so she'd have nothing to complain about if she were to be banned for hateful conduct...

...Of course, i don't really think that she should be banned for idle threats and impotent hate on the internet. I don't believe in censorship. is the endless screed about how much she hates "nazis" irritating? yes, but it's about on the same level as chihuahua pissing on my shoe; i'm not gonna kick the dumb little shit for it.

[King Zultan]

What are you trying to say with this?

I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.

[Il Palazzo]

One can argue that the targets of hate hating the haters back for their hate is a counterproductive, self-damaging, or maybe non-Christian (where applicable) approach. But there is no moral equivalence here. One is reactive to the other. Max is not just like the neonazis for wanting them to stop making her life miserable by all means available. Same as - topical analogy incoming - the defending Ukrainians are not just as immoral as the invading Russians when they shoot to kill or boil with rage.
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.

cut Max some slack.

Basically.

[Strongpoint]

Max, you still don't get it...

Even if we are talking about a child molester who raped dozens of children when I, on an emotional level, actually want this person to suffer (it is a very natural emotion!). I won't make them suffer given a chance. It is IMMORAL. Yes this person should be stopped in one way or another but making them suffer does no good to anyone.

I can understand the pro-censorship position. But you repeatedly state that you want a group of people to suffer for no other damned reason but to PLEASE you.

_____________________

The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology

[martinuzz]

The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology

Meh that is overgeneralization. Are traffic lights or maximum road speeds fascism? Are taxes fascism? Are all laws fascism?

[MaxTheFox]

Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.

Why? according to her, if you don't pound hateful facist bigots into the ground until their bodies and spirits are broken, the hate they spew will spread and fester.
She simply has neglected to think that this might apply to herself as well.
It is often the case that those who call for a lynching will end up hanged with the same noose they intended for others.

But not all the world believes that.  There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview.  The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

There is no excuse for hate, no matter where it comes from.

Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.

Then why even try? Why not just remove her from the discussion, and preferably, the forum? It'd be perfectly in line with her personal beliefs, so she'd have nothing to complain about if she were to be banned for hateful conduct...

...Of course, i don't really think that she should be banned for idle threats and impotent hate on the internet. I don't believe in censorship. is the endless screed about how much she hates "nazis" irritating? yes, but it's about on the same level as chihuahua pissing on my shoe; i'm not gonna kick the dumb little shit for it.

There is a difference between hate aimed at innocent people and hate aimed at those hating innocent people. Something free speech absolutists like you and Strongpoint fail to understand. Yes I would have a problem with being banned for this, for that exact reason: I do not treat all ideologies with equal value. This hate is justified. Go touch grass, I am simply speaking out against people who want me to not exist. And yes, it is correct that forcefully pushing back against them is the only way to stop their opinions from spreading. You cannot reason with the Nazis. It is simply naive to think the vast majority of them can change.

I know they want to silence me too (or worse), probably. They would have no matter my take on this. Why would I be spineless? You do not understand what it is like to be a target of bigotry, Strik3r. You wouldn't insult and belittle me if that were the case.

I only keep going on about this because people are arguing with me. It's not like I started this thread. If you don't like me talking about this, stop responding.

What are you trying to say with this?

I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.

This would apply if they weren't the ones calling for the death of black people, LGBT, Jews. Again, I'm not exactly targeting guiltless people. If you think we as a society should just stand there and do nothing against bigotry then fine. I will think you are a bad person for it, however. I don't think you should suffer for it, I just think it's a shit take.

Max, you still don't get it...

Even if we are talking about a child molester who raped dozens of children when I, on an emotional level, actually want this person to suffer (it is a very natural emotion!). I won't make them suffer given a chance. It is IMMORAL. Yes this person should be stopped in one way or another but making them suffer does no good to anyone.

I can understand the pro-censorship position. But you repeatedly state that you want a group of people to suffer for no other damned reason but to PLEASE you.

_____________________

The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology

1. Then we have different moralities. Suffering and being silenced is a valid punishment for being a fascist. It might indeed do good to other people by setting an example against fascism, but more importantly, it punishes the fascist themself.
2. I want them to suffer to set an example against fascism, and to punish them for bigotry. Not just to please me, though I do enjoy them getting their comeuppance.
3. Fascism is necessarily bigoted, without bigotry it's not fascism but merely collectivism or authoritarianism.

Look, I just want the ones calling for your people to be massacred to be made to shut the hell up. I admire your adherence to your ideals in the face of actual genocide, but I don't really understand it.
Y'all honestly want me to tolerate people wanting to torture and/or kill me. No thank you.

[KittyTac]

Just me or this is just a screaming match with no new points being made by either side at this point? I mostly agree with Max, however.

Also, the insults and vague threats aimed at her were uncalled for.

[MaxTheFox]

One can argue that the targets of hate hating the haters back for their hate is a counterproductive, self-damaging, or maybe non-Christian (where applicable) approach. But there is no moral equivalence here. One is reactive to the other. Max is not just like the neonazis for wanting them to stop making her life miserable by all means available. Same as - topical analogy incoming - the defending Ukrainians are not just as immoral as the invading Russians when they shoot to kill or boil with rage.
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.

cut Max some slack.

Basically.

Yeah basically this. I can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi, and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets, but I simply don't have it in myself to even want to try. Even being in the same forum/chatroom as one fills me with anger. Quit expecting me to treat someone who wants me dead with the same respect as someone who doesn't, or even worse, saying I and them are equivalent (looking at you, Strik3r).

[Strongpoint]

Then we have different moralities.

We certainly do. My vision of morality can be explained in two sentences

1) Action is moral when it decreases worldwide suffering and\or increases worldwide happiness
2) Action is immoral when it decreases worldwide happiness and\or increases worldwide suffering

Sometimes it is really hard to tell if an action is 1 or 2. Sometimes it is damn easy.

Punishing someone for the sake of punishing is certainly a 2.

_________________

I can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets

Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...

[MaxTheFox]

We certainly do. My vision of morality can be explained in two sentences

1) Action is moral when it decreases worldwide suffering and\or increases worldwide happiness
2) Action is immoral when it decreases worldwide happiness and\or increases worldwide suffering

Sometimes it is really hard to tell if an action is 1 or 2. Sometimes it is damn easy.

Punishing someone for the sake of punishing is certainly a 2

The happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?

I can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets

Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...

Nah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.
I also don't want to physically round them up and torture them, if I didn't make that clear. It's more about deplatforming and emotional/psychological harassment.

[Strongpoint]

The happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?

Understood, morality for you is something determined by what benefits you or the people you like... I have no more questions.

Nah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.

Sure! I don't understand. My country is currently being invaded by people who are killing Ukrainins for being Ukrainians! How the hell can I understand something like that?

You are arrogant and immoral. I tell you this straight in your face hoping that, in time, you'll see how wrong you are.

And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it. Also, I am confident that your list of neo-nazies and fascist is far far wider than actual fascists and neo-nazies.

[MaxTheFox]

The happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?

Understood, morality for you is something determined by what benefits you or the people you like... I have no more questions.

Nah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.

Sure! I don't understand. My country is currently being invaded by people who are killing Ukrainins for being Ukrainians! How the hell can I understand something like that?

You are arrogant and immoral. I tell you this straight in your face hoping that, in time, you'll see how wrong you are.

And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it. Also, I am confident that your list of neo-nazies and fascist is far far wider than actual fascists and neo-nazies.

1. It's less that and more like I can lose all sympathy for people who are absolute garbage.
2. You said it's easier to convince a bigot to not be a bigot while being a minority. That was my rebuttal. I didn't say you didn't understand what bigotry was.
3. And I think you are the arrogant and immoral one and you're arguing in bad faith at this point.
4. OK first of all, how on God's green Earth is "cishet" bigoted by itself? It just means cis and heterosexual, and I hold absolutely nothing against those people. And no it isn't. I have far less of a problem with regular conservatives for example. I do hate some non-fascist ideologies however, like Stalinism, anarcho-capitalism, and anarcho-primitivism.
We don't live in a children's cartoon. Talking to people who want you dead and kindly asking them to not want you dead will do absolutely nothing. The only real way to fight that kind of hate is censorship. All this conversation taught me so far is that free speech absolutists like telling threatened minorities to shut up and let bigots run free. Understood.

For the record, Strongpoint, I don't think you are a deeply terrible person, unlike the far-right or that other guy I rebuked here. You are a good person at heart, it's just that your views are immoral. I can only hope that you improve.

[Il Palazzo]

For f's sake, what's with this language? Neither of you is immoral, or has immoral views (that we know of). The bar is quite a bit higher than disagreeing on the hot topic de jour.

[MaxTheFox]

For f's sake, what's with this language? Neither of you is immoral, or has immoral views (that we know of). The bar is quite a bit higher than disagreeing on the hot topic de jour.

Yeah I take that back, I got a little heated. Gee, I'm getting flashbacks.

[EuchreJack]

...at least everyone is contaminating a basically throwaway joke thread. 

Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...

Hard NO.
This is basically telling a victim of domestic violence that they need to reconcile with their abuser.

The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology

Fascism has ALWAYS been a racially-motivated ideology.  Don't let anyone tell you differently!
Oppressing/blaming minorities was always a central component, at least as long as Hitler was in any way associated with it.
I'm not familiar enough with Mussolini's Fascism, but I think even he at least blamed non-Italians for all of Italy's problems, and did blame Jews to scapegoat people into feeling better about themselves.

One can argue that the targets of hate hating the haters back for their hate is a counterproductive, self-damaging, or maybe non-Christian (where applicable) approach. But there is no moral equivalence here. One is reactive to the other. Max is not just like the neonazis for wanting them to stop making her life miserable by all means available. Same as - topical analogy incoming - the defending Ukrainians are not just as immoral as the invading Russians when they shoot to kill or boil with rage.
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.

cut Max some slack.

Basically.

Eh, at this point the wisest thing to do is just sheep Sage Il Palazzo's words.
I had written something more, but I think this do more to heal some wounds rather than re-traumatize.