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[Man of Paper]

RE: curious’ question
It’s honestly an inconsequential question with no answer that’d impact the game mechanically. Do whatever you want because whether you want your mortals to be able to magic on their own or need you to magic is ultimately a question of flavor, and that’s up to you and your teammates.

[Maximum Spin]

Really, the most implied answer is that, if the gods didn't exist, there wouldn't be anything anyway because they created everything, so there would be no mortals to use magic.
Design proposal 3: Withdrawal of Emptiness (magic)
The ritual of Withdrawal of Emptiness employs the powers of order and chaos to manipulate space, smoothly moving a target object from one place to another by withdrawing space from between those places and moving it to the other side. Because space is warped continuously, nothing occupying the path of transit experiences any effects - it's more like pushing the threads of a weave aside to open a hole than like cutting them. The distance travelled and the size of the object are both harshly limited by the ability of the mage - complex projects would probably require many mages working together.
Design proposal 4: Thaumatomotor (infrastructure)
The thaumatomotor is a simple construction of overlapping layers of metals with varied elemental attunements, arranged so that part of the device, called the rotor, spins relative to the remainder (the stator) when arcane force is applied. Because it runs on raw arcane energy, only the most basic magical understanding is required to operate the thaumatomotor, and only a modest amount of mental effort actually has to be expended to run it, so it can be much more efficient than developing specific spells for some particular use. It can, obviously, be used to power a wide variety of systems throughout our domain, from smithies and mills to wells and vehicles.

[Man of Paper]

WoE is very much Theoretical/Ludicrous, that level of manipulation of the fabric of reality is, well theoretical at best with your current magic tech level

A motor is almost never going to function in this setting - no skirting around higher tech restrictions just by saying it’s magic instead (think the way Arcanum handles tech and magic, but on a universal instead of personal scale). There is one very specific way to nudge the rule a little bit, but you gotta figure it out yourselves. I’ve done made some steps to keep this from devolving into another magic WW1 arms race

[Maximum Spin]

WoE is very much Theoretical/Ludicrous, that level of manipulation of the fabric of reality is, well theoretical at best with your current magic tech level

... it just moves things around though? I didn't think the flavoring of it would matter that much.

I also think we have wildly different understandings of what constitutes "advanced technology". I mean, this isn't any more than what was available to the ancient Greeks! I wasn't even thinking in terms of skirting tech restrictions because I didn't think that would even be a problem.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Design proposal 1:  I give so that you might give.

Currently, the mortals get their magic without going through us.  Are we to sit here and do nothing when a profit is to be made?  I give so that you might give consists of cutting off all access that mortals have to magic (except through us) and making a pact with the mortals.  The mortals provide us with with worship and/or sacrifices, and we provide the mortals with magic and divine intervention (where/when necessary).  Naturally, we basically act as a middleman, receiving sacrifices from the mortals, taking a little bit off the top (I.e. “profit”), then trading the rest to the planes in return for magic, taking a little “profit” off of that, and then providing them to the mortals.  Also the magic does not need to be used by the mortals immediately, but can be used at any time after they receive them.  As an additional component, a ritual is provided whereby the mortals can pray to us for divine intervention.  In this case, we can provide the required assistance using the profits we acquired from before, with the understanding that the mortals will repay us by performing a sacrifice as soon as they reasonable can.

[NUKE9.13]

Design proposal 1:  I give so that you might give.

Currently, the mortals get their magic without going through us.  Are we to sit here and do nothing when a profit is to be made?  I give so that you might give consists of cutting off all access that mortals have to magic (except through us) and making a pact with the mortals.  The mortals provide us with “sacrifices”, and we provide the mortals with “blessings” (e.g. magic) and divine intervention (where/when necessary).  Naturally, we basically act as a middleman, receiving sacrifices from the mortals, taking a little bit off the top (I.e. “profit”), then trading the rest to the planes in return for “blessings” (e.g. magic), and then providing them to the mortals.


Design proposal 2:  The Ear of God.

The Ear of God is a ritual by which individual mortals can make requests of Us.  This allows us to better tailor the “blessings” we provide to them as part of “I give so that you might give”.

I'm pretty sure both ie and eg do not have periods in the middle. And all uses of eg should be ie, unless there are a bunch of other things that fall under the category of "blessings".

Also, more relevantly, handicapping our forces that way would be foolish. What if a mortal doesn't have a sacrifice on hand, but really needs to cast a spell to wipe out a squad of enemy soldiers? Whoops, too bad, the enemy overruns that position.
Also also, The Ear of God should absolutely be integrated into I Give So That You Might Give.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Design proposal 1:  I give so that you might give.

Currently, the mortals get their magic without going through us.  Are we to sit here and do nothing when a profit is to be made?  I give so that you might give consists of cutting off all access that mortals have to magic (except through us) and making a pact with the mortals.  The mortals provide us with “sacrifices”, and we provide the mortals with “blessings” (e.g. magic) and divine intervention (where/when necessary).  Naturally, we basically act as a middleman, receiving sacrifices from the mortals, taking a little bit off the top (I.e. “profit”), then trading the rest to the planes in return for “blessings” (e.g. magic), and then providing them to the mortals.


Design proposal 2:  The Ear of God.

The Ear of God is a ritual by which individual mortals can make requests of Us.  This allows us to better tailor the “blessings” we provide to them as part of “I give so that you might give”.

I'm pretty sure both ie and eg do not have periods in the middle. And all uses of eg should be ie, unless there are a bunch of other things that fall under the category of "blessings".

Also, more relevantly, handicapping our forces that way would be foolish. What if a mortal doesn't have a sacrifice on hand, but really needs to cast a spell? Whoops, too bad, the enemy overruns that position.
Also also, The Ear of God should absolutely be integrated into I Give So That You Might Give.

I.e. = “Id est” = “That is”

E.g. = “Examplia Gratia” = “For example” (more literally, “Free example”). 

I’m trying not to constrain the “blessings” to just magic.

That being said, I think I might want to make a few changes/clarifications…

[NUKE9.13]

I.e. = “Id est” = “That is”

E.g. = “Examplia Gratia” = “For example” (more literally, “Free example”). 

I am aware of this. I thought they were written without periods these days, but a quick google shows me I was wrong about that.

Anyway, if the blessings are not just magic, then you absolutely need to say what else they are. MoP can not read minds; if you don't ask for something, you don't get it.

[Maximum Spin]

I honestly think that, of all the "exchange for power" ideas currently on record, Chains of the Contract is the best. Unlike the others, it actually demands service of the mortals for our power, ie, something genuinely useful.

(Also, while I am aware that both styles exist, not putting periods in your Latin abbreviations is obviously superior. And they should never be capitalized like that!)
Design proposal 5: Extremely Ordinary Locomotion (locomotio perquam ordinaria)
This spell moves things in an extremely ordinary and boring way that definitely isn't cool or interesting at all. Things were just there, and then they were somewhere else. Magically.

[NUKE9.13]

I honestly think that, of all the "exchange for power" ideas currently on record, Chains of the Contract is the best. Unlike the others, it actually demands service of the mortals for our power, ie, something genuinely useful.

I thought that was intended to be used in the elemental planes, to buy their loyalty. We don't need to buy the loyalty of our followers on the mortal plane, as far as I understand.

Design proposal 5: Extremely Ordinary Locomotion (locomotio perquam ordinaria)
This spell moves things in an extremely ordinary and boring way that definitely isn't cool or interesting at all. Things were just there, and then they were somewhere else. Magically.

Is it teleportation? Or propulsion?

[A_Curious_Cat]

I.e. = “Id est” = “That is”

E.g. = “Examplia Gratia” = “For example” (more literally, “Free example”). 

I am aware of this. I thought they were written without periods these days, but a quick google shows me I was wrong about that.

Anyway, if the blessings are not just magic, then you absolutely need to say what else they are. MoP can not read minds; if you don't ask for something, you don't get it.

I’m just trying not to lock us into trading with the planes for just magic…

Anyways, I’ve made a few changes and combined the two proposals into one.  I’d be interested in knowing what you think about it.

[NUKE9.13]

I’m just trying not to lock us into trading with the planes for just magic…

Anyways, I’ve made a few changes and combined the two proposals into one.  I’d be interested in knowing what you think about it.

Okay, yeah, that's somewhat better- it at least avoids the absolute worst case scenario I described above. But it's still adding a mandatory cost, making the use of magic more expensive for our servants. There could still be the situation where they cannot afford to deploy as many mages as the enemy due to a lack of resources. Voluntary tribute has the exact same effect, without the downsides. Forcing our servants to work through us is not an upside- if they're already loyal enough to throw their lives away in our war, then being denied access to magic if they don't work for us isn't going to improve their loyalty.
E: Actually, it could make it worse, since they could get magic for free if they defected to the Auran side.

Also, you still don't describe what other blessings you are thinking of. If you don't want to lock us into just magic, then describe some other potential blessings.

[A_Curious_Cat]

I’m just trying not to lock us into trading with the planes for just magic…

Anyways, I’ve made a few changes and combined the two proposals into one.  I’d be interested in knowing what you think about it.

Okay, yeah, that's somewhat better- it at least avoids the absolute worst case scenario I described above. But it's still adding a mandatory cost, making the use of magic more expensive for our servants. There could still be the situation where they cannot afford to deploy as many mages as the enemy due to a lack of resources. Voluntary tribute has the exact same effect, without the downsides. Forcing our servants to work through us is not an upside- if they're already loyal enough to throw their lives away in our war, then being denied access to magic if they don't work for us isn't going to improve their loyalty.
E: Actually, it could make it worse, since they could get magic for free if they defected to the Auran side.

Also, you still don't describe what other blessings you are thinking of. If you don't want to lock us into just magic, then describe some other potential blessings.

And what does “Chains of The Contract get Us in return?…

Also, I think I’ll change all references to “blessings” to magic, anything else can wait till a revision.

Edit: Fixed post and changed proposal.

[NUKE9.13]

And what does “Chains of The Contract get Us in return?…

I think you're confusing me and Spin. I literally just raised the same concern:

I honestly think that, of all the "exchange for power" ideas currently on record, Chains of the Contract is the best. Unlike the others, it actually demands service of the mortals for our power, ie, something genuinely useful.

I thought that was intended to be used in the elemental planes, to buy their loyalty. We don't need to buy the loyalty of our followers on the mortal plane, as far as I understand.

Unless you're asking what it gets us in return on the elemental planes, in which case... loyalty. Which we need to acquire on the elemental planes in order to get their bonuses. This is how the game works. Mortal plane: already loyal, poorly equipped. Elemental planes: not loyal, provide equipment.

Either way, I'm not voting for Chains. Or Reimbursement. I've shifted over to preferring commerce.

[Maximum Spin]

I honestly think that, of all the "exchange for power" ideas currently on record, Chains of the Contract is the best. Unlike the others, it actually demands service of the mortals for our power, ie, something genuinely useful.

I thought that was intended to be used in the elemental planes, to buy their loyalty. We don't need to buy the loyalty of our followers on the mortal plane, as far as I understand.

Well yeah, but we also don't need sacrifices from our followers on the mortal plane, either. We can just give them power.

Design proposal 5: Extremely Ordinary Locomotion (locomotio perquam ordinaria)
This spell moves things in an extremely ordinary and boring way that definitely isn't cool or interesting at all. Things were just there, and then they were somewhere else. Magically.

Is it teleportation? Or propulsion?

Neither. It's Extremely Ordinary Locomotion. The things have simply moved. There is no answer to how they moved. It just happened.

I do like the idea of commerce, but I haven't really decided on a vote yet.