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[RoseHeart]

I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

There's certainly players that make the experience better for everyone else with their enthusiasm. There's even players that make suggestions that effect a game. But usually in a forum game if things do change at all from the start (and many are locked in and don't change) it is usually the talent of the host to cultivate an experience more to those players' liking.

I'm not trying to argue that business model makes sense, outside of real life experiences like Escape Rooms and Haunted Houses and so forth. But I also don't feel people who go to those real life experiences are experiencing an imbalance for paying for their tickets, nor do a feel a forum game host is contributing less creativity to its' players than the designers of those real life experiences.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.

[EuchreJack]

On the topic of monetization, I wish it were possible for forum games to be a viable business haha. I'm not sure if it can be atm. But if it did happen, I think the best way is for players and GMs to both be getting credit, ideally by a paying audience. I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me. Just the two cents I've thought about on this topic. If the game is interesting enough for people to want to spectate in some way, I think such a thing is possible. Forum games have incredible potential to create stories and games beyond what other mediums can offer, I would love to see it grow as a potential industry.

If you can get someone to pay you for something, more power to you.

As for the how, this very forum and Something Awful pretty much show you the two business models you could follow in creating your For Pay forum games.
You either set up a forum with a subscription fee and charge the folks to post
OR
You set up a forum with a nice Donate button somewhere and hope for the best.

In the first few (months, years) the profits probably wouldn't pay server costs, and you'd make more money for less work by working minimum wage.  But hopefully, it would snowball into something where you could collect more profit for less work.  How to actually set up that sort of thing is beyond my expertise.

....
Speaking of forum games, I had an idea for something like the above as a forum game.  Forum Wars or something like that.  Each player is a forum, and they are rated by forum statistics.  More statistics, more resources.  The cool part is that the players can interact with each other in interesting ways.

[RoseHeart]

I think a better analogy than anything I presented in my last post, is an Author. You pay to read a book (unless you check it out from a library, but the author is still payed in that instance by the library).

Now what if that book also changed based on what you wanted the protagonist to do? That's like a fricken magic book.

I think of buying a suit versus tailor made.


It costs $10 to buy a Stephan King novel. It costs $50 to sit with him for less than a minute and get him to sign something. What would it cost to hire Stephan King to write a full fanfiction with your own mary sue, meet with you on a weekly bases, what would would that cost?

I'm not really gunning for you at all Meimei, I'm just a little jaded on this particular topic. There's not going to be a paywall on my game you signed up for tomorrow, and while I have had many delightful players that in the end have not changed my views, I am open to the possibility that you'll be the one so wonderful I see the errors of my petty ways. I'm just thinking with a microphone, any action to change things will also likely need to fall upon me.

[Man of Paper]

I don’t know why you’d ever touch forum game monetization with a twenty foot pole. Just don’t bring it up. It’s not a great topic and I think only one person here actually supports the idea in any degree (spoiler alert - it’s you). And before you say it, no, some things don’t need to be discussed. Wanting, expecting, or demanding pay for running a forum game is so absurd it’s hard to know where to start.

First your analogy is crap. The gm is more like a party host and the players the unsuspecting guests. Should the partygoers pay the planner for throwing a party? No. They should be expected to throw a bangin’ party and the partiers expected only to enjoy it.

Second your reference to a “business model” is absurd. There is and should never be a “business model” for running forum games. There should be a desire to run a game for some internet friends, an idea, and a keyboard and monitor. Nothing else.

Third it doesn’t matter how mentally stimulating a forum game can be, and your statement about the gm being required is one I could make for players too - you need them to have a game people play. If you don’t have the players then you don’t have a game. How much of a cut should they get? How about a forum admin for housing fg&rp? Your ISP for letting you run the game through their tubes?

The difference between the forum and fuckin hollywood creatives that you invoke here also is, uh, that’s certainly a thing, and it’s not just semantics that separates them (I’m also not entirely sure you’re using the word right). In Hollywood you have education and experience, teams of people within and without poring over details and fine tuning everything (for better or worse). On a forum you have one person tapping away at keys so that other people can tap away at their keys. The most important part here? The forum game is not a 5-to-9. It’s not a job. It’s not a career. It’s something you do voluntarily because you have an idea and want to have fun and share it with likeminded people.

If you find yourself thinking you should actually be paid for your effort then you’re losing sight of the whole purpose of forum games (fun with friends). If you think you should be compensated for your efforts then maybe you need to find an actual job that utilizes your skillset instead. If a friend wants to throw you a few dinars for your effort and time then that’s great, but it shouldn’t move beyond that.

Finally, if you ever bring this topic up again I sure hope you run more than a fuckin hurt and heal or other absolutely minimal effort game to run when you’re using your own experience as a point of reference. There are very few people I’d consider worth giving money to for their efforts, and I hate seeing someone far less worthy championing a cause that that person should have no right associating themselves with.

I have a lot I’d like to say, but some of it could be taken as rude, and I have more important things demanding my attention right now.

[NUKE9.13]

If you think of running a forum game as work- something you do for players to enjoy, that you yourself receive no benefits from- then you should not be running forum games. For that matter, if you think of hosting a party for your friends as work, you shouldn't be hosting parties for your friends.

Also, if you think the amount of work that goes into running your forum games is even comparable to writing a Stephen King length novel, you need to stick a wrench in your ear and realign your brain.

[RoseHeart]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don’t know why you’d ever touch forum game monetization with a twenty foot pole. Just don’t bring it up. It’s not a great topic and I think only one person here actually supports the idea in any degree (spoiler alert - it’s you). And before you say it, no, some things don’t need to be discussed. Wanting, expecting, or demanding pay for running a forum game is so absurd it’s hard to know where to start.

First your analogy is crap. The gm is more like a party host and the players the unsuspecting guests. Should the partygoers pay the planner for throwing a party? No. They should be expected to throw a bangin’ party and the partiers expected only to enjoy it.

Second your reference to a “business model” is absurd. There is and should never be a “business model” for running forum games. There should be a desire to run a game for some internet friends, an idea, and a keyboard and monitor. Nothing else.

Third it doesn’t matter how mentally stimulating a forum game can be, and your statement about the gm being required is one I could make for players too - you need them to have a game people play. If you don’t have the players then you don’t have a game. How much of a cut should they get? How about a forum admin for housing fg&rp? Your ISP for letting you run the game through their tubes?

The difference between the forum and fuckin hollywood creatives that you invoke here also is, uh, that’s certainly a thing, and it’s not just semantics that separates them (I’m also not entirely sure you’re using the word right). In Hollywood you have education and experience, teams of people within and without poring over details and fine tuning everything (for better or worse). On a forum you have one person tapping away at keys so that other people can tap away at their keys. The most important part here? The forum game is not a 5-to-9. It’s not a job. It’s not a career. It’s something you do voluntarily because you have an idea and want to have fun and share it with likeminded people.

If you find yourself thinking you should actually be paid for your effort then you’re losing sight of the whole purpose of forum games (fun with friends). If you think you should be compensated for your efforts then maybe you need to find an actual job that utilizes your skillset instead. If a friend wants to throw you a few dinars for your effort and time then that’s great, but it shouldn’t move beyond that.

Finally, if you ever bring this topic up again I sure hope you run more than a fuckin hurt and heal or other absolutely minimal effort game to run when you’re using your own experience as a point of reference. There are very few people I’d consider worth giving money to for their efforts, and I hate seeing someone far less worthy championing a cause that that person should have no right associating themselves with.

I have a lot I’d like to say, but some of it could be taken as rude, and I have more important things demanding my attention right now.

[ x ] Shaming
[ x ] Personal Attacks
[ x ] Ignoring multiple other users have a Patreon account or other form of donations
[ x ] Attacking analogies with hyperboly rather than the underlying comparison

*Yawn*

[MeimieFan88]

I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

There's certainly players that make the experience better for everyone else with their enthusiasm. There's even players that make suggestions that effect a game. But usually in a forum game if things do change at all from the start (and many are locked in and don't change) it is usually the talent of the host to cultivate an experience more to those players' liking.

I'm not trying to argue that business model makes sense, outside of real life experiences like Escape Rooms and Haunted Houses and so forth. But I also don't feel people who go to those real life experiences are experiencing an imbalance for paying for their tickets, nor do a feel a forum game host is contributing less creativity to its' players than the designers of those real life experiences.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.

I think it really depends on what kind of forum game it is. Some games, definitely the host does mostly everything and is moreso the "provider" of entertainment rather than the "consumer". But for some games I've hosted I've felt very much a consumer myself, being the host. It feels like by posting/playing/offering ideas players are allowing me to have a good time with my updates. I wouldn't equate it to me throwing a birthday party for player(s), but rather, me making a movie and players signing up to be actors and co-writers. It's much more a collaborative process than a provider-consumer relationship. But again it very much depends on the game.

In fact some of the private single-player GM'ed roleplays I've been running, players' word count per post has often exceeded my own (these games are bordering on more 'formal' roleplays, but with a GM and perhaps utilizing a system like D&D). That's probably not the type of forum game that is often played on these forums in particular, but it's a decent example of where players can input a ton of material. I do really feel that I am enjoying the game as much as they are, and in different ways than them (on a side note I also really enjoy being a player of GM'ed RPs - it's a different experience and I get to RP a bit more than worldbuild).

I feel like if it becomes a client-business relationship then I won't enjoy it as much because I'll feel like I need to be providing them a service, rather than enjoying a mutually engaging collaborative experience. And honestly as a player I wouldn't feel comfortable paying someone to GM for me (not only because I'm poor AF) because it would feel too "business-like" and I'll start telling myself stuff like "this had better be fun!" rather than creating the fun myself, which would actually detract from the fun. And likewise as a GM being paid I might start trying too hard to "do my job" and in the process not be enjoying the game myself, which again would hurt the overall fun of the game. I really think that the most fun games are created in environments where everyone is having fun, with no "obligations" to have/create/uphold said fun. It's kind of like a catch-22 - trying to have fun actually detracts from having fun.

When it comes to the business side I'm pretty clueless. I feel like forum games are a good collaborative medium to create a piece of "art", which in itself can be a product. I don't think I am very receptive to the idea of paid GMing though, or at least I wouldn't want to participate in it, either as a player or a GM, for the above mentioned reasons (I don't think it would be very fun for either side). I mean I would love to get money for GMing, but not from my players - because players need money too! I want everyone involved to be able to get money in this situation. Otherwise it doesn't feel as fun. But yeah these are just my subjective viewpoints.

I think a better analogy than anything I presented in my last post, is an Author. You pay to read a book (unless you check it out from a library, but the author is still payed in that instance by the library).

Now what if that book also changed based on what you wanted the protagonist to do? That's like a fricken magic book.

I think of buying a suit versus tailor made.


It costs $10 to buy a Stephan King novel. It costs $50 to sit with him for less than a minute and get him to sign something. What would it cost to hire Stephan King to write a full fanfiction with your own mary sue, meet with you on a weekly bases, what would would that cost?

I'm not really gunning for you at all Meimei, I'm just a little jaded on this particular topic. There's not going to be a paywall on my game you signed up for tomorrow, and while I have had many delightful players that in the end have not changed my views, I am open to the possibility that you'll be the one so wonderful I see the errors of my petty ways. I'm just thinking with a microphone, any action to change things will also likely need to fall upon me.

It depends on the game but I would say that players are more like co-writers of a book than people reading the book. Even if it's a magical book. They are part of the magic.

[Man of Paper]

You’re just mad cuz I’m right roseheart, and you can’t stand it. If you wanna ignore all the legitimate points I made because it hurt your feels that’s fine, it just helps highlight how wrong you are about the subject. gg though, love

Also meimie has got it right

[RoseHeart]

It depends on the game but I would say that players are more like co-writers of a book than people reading the book. Even if it's a magical book. They are part of the magic.

I'm not entirely in disagreement. In fact I think about Twitch streamers that help a video game to thrive, and that's not even effecting the game itself.

[RoseHeart]

You’re just mad cuz I’m right roseheart, and you can’t stand it. If you wanna ignore all the legitimate points I made because it hurt your feels that’s fine, it just helps highlight how wrong you are about the subject.

I reeaally wish that was true. I am desperate for it.

But also have supported (with $) established creatives like Piecewise and MadMonkey, so I see this issue holistically. Not just as a creator. I felt good about doing it to.

[NUKE9.13]

Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?

[MeimieFan88]

I think patreon / donation services are perfectly fine and good, it's any kind of mandatory payment where I start to feel like it's not a good model.

Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?

Absolutely. The biggest difference, imo.

[RoseHeart]

I think it really depends on what kind of forum game it is. Some games, definitely the host does mostly everything and is moreso the "provider" of entertainment rather than the "consumer". But for some games I've hosted I've felt very much a consumer myself, being the host. It feels like by posting/playing/offering ideas players are allowing me to have a good time with my updates. I wouldn't equate it to me throwing a birthday party for player(s), but rather, me making a movie and players signing up to be actors and co-writers. It's much more a collaborative process than a provider-consumer relationship. But again it very much depends on the game.

Yeah. That's definitely the case sometimes.

When I hosted Voyage: Space Odyssey and my Iron Gladiator games, I definitely felt like I was the director on an improv show, with actors.

That's definitely the strongest counter argument.

[NUKE9.13]

Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?

Absolutely. The biggest difference, imo.

(That was a rhetorical question, to be clear)

[Iris]

I'm sorry, I noticed this popping up in my unread replies and couldn't resist adding my thoughts. I may have gone a little overboard, but I was typing from the heart. Apologies if I came off as too harsh.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

This is a terrible analogy. The experience is a collaboration between the players and the GM. If you wanted everything to happen the way you planned it, you would go write a book. The players, by adding their choice, add a layer of richness and depth through spontaneity. This is true in suggestion games, but is especially true in character RPs - the mere notion that a player, by playing their character, is not responsible for the quality of the experience is not only absurd but offensive. I, by joining your game, agree to spend my time coming up with a character for your game and play her faithfully; and because of this, the game is just as much my work as yours. Arguing otherwise would be to say that my character is not my creative work, which is an illogical and indefensible position - any contribution by others, no matter how slight, needs to be acknowledged.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

This is, again, a farcical position. The players do not only react to the world that you, as Game Master, create: they also interact with each other. Just as the GM creates a world for the players, the players create interaction for each other, and they create interaction with the GM. It would be completely erroneous to imply that only the Game Master's input matters, and is the only input is worthy of payment. The collaborative experience of the forum game does not easily translate to a paid experience. The GM and Players are cocreators in the final game, and both must be treated as such. Why would I pay someone for the privilege to contribute to their game? The GM needs players as much as the players need a GM. To act otherwise is folly. A paid artist-client relationship is inherently imbalanced and disrupts this mutual need.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.

I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is. Your post is difficult to understand. Are you trying to argue about the necessity of talent? If so, then I agree; however, one person's talent is not the determiner of the work's quality. To use The Mandalorian as an example, Dave Filoni is just one of many team members responsible for the final work's quality - a cursory Google search shows that there are several other executive producers working on the show - to say nothing of the writers, editors, cameramen, set decorators...

One man is never responsible for a creative work. Books need an author and an editor. Video games need artists and programmers. Forum games are no different.

-snip-

Pre-post edit: Meimie's post is too long to react to quote-by-quote, but I agree with many of their positions, and they have said many of the same things I have said in this post more eloquently (and, perhaps, with less vitrol). If I were to take money for my GMing - which is a tall order - I would much rather my players be compensated as well. They had as much say in the final result as I did.