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[hector13]

The post button moved so I got the letter size wrong.

The game is ruined

[Luckyowl]

*flips a coin*

*completely ignores this*

LuckyOwl

Town can win by lynching scum, or by scum hammering the wrong townie.

We got nothing to lose by being aggressive.

*catch the coin just when it was about to land in your hand*

You're pretty much right on that. How that Red shirt really look good on you. Hector13. Oh looks like Leafsnail has to take the 50/50 coin flip.

If you're mafia. One of us will kill you.
If you're town. Then one of us is the mafia.
If you're the saint. Then you're free to lynch whoever you want.

Choose wisely, Leafsnail. One of us may very well lead you to your demise or a townie victory. Good luck.

[Luckyowl]

Hector13. If you're saint then you really put me in a good position here. Now the Mafioso must be careful who they choose. But if you're Mafioso then our fate is whatever the saint! Leafsnail chooses. They win regardless of the alignment. However..if they don't randomly pick one of us. Then that means. We might have 2 possible scenario.

A: Town ^ Saint
           
       Mafia


B: Mafia ^ Saint

       Town

In both instances. Townie, and scum must be careful who they choose. The Mafia! Leafsnail will try to find a saint slip. The Town! Leafsnail will try to find a scum slip. If we're in scenario A. Then we have to be careful not to do a saint slip. If we're in scenario B. Then you'll have to make me look scummy and I'll have to make you look scummy. I hope we're in a scenario A. Since then we can turn the vote onto Leafsnail. But that's only if we can build trust with on another before the Mafia! Leafsnail figure out the saint.

[Luckyowl]

If we're in Scenario B. Then Hector13 you really put yourself in a bad position here. I won't be changing my vote and if you change your vote onto Leafsnail then I'll know you're the scum. And if you try to argue that I'm the mafia. Then it would be proof to me that you're the mafia. The only thing I would have to do is convince Leafsnail you're the scum.

Overall, Mafia! Hector. You might potentially lose the game for yourself with this move.

But Saint! Hector13 I hope we can start trusting eachother as the game proceed.

[Luckyowl]

Leafsnail: Who do you trust the most Right now?

Hector: Are you confident that you can get me lynch?

[hector13]

Luckyowl has claimed to be a vanilla townie, which suits me, because that means they’re scum.

[Leafsnail]

So both of you have claimed townie? How interesting. I can tell you now that both of you are lying.

I am currently more inclined to trust LuckyOwl, and I will lay out why.

This post from LuckyOwl:

Hector13. If you're saint then you really put me in a good position here. Now the Mafioso must be careful who they choose. But if you're Mafioso then our fate is whatever the saint! Leafsnail chooses. They win regardless of the alignment. However..if they don't randomly pick one of us. Then that means. We might have 2 possible scenario.

A: Town ^ Saint
           
       Mafia


B: Mafia ^ Saint

       Town

In both instances. Townie, and scum must be careful who they choose. The Mafia! Leafsnail will try to find a saint slip. The Town! Leafsnail will try to find a scum slip. If we're in scenario A. Then we have to be careful not to do a saint slip. If we're in scenario B. Then you'll have to make me look scummy and I'll have to make you look scummy. I hope we're in a scenario A. Since then we can turn the vote onto Leafsnail. But that's only if we can build trust with on another before the Mafia! Leafsnail figure out the saint.

Is actually a good summary of how SS3 works. As long as the super-saint hasn't claimed the mafia cannot safely hammer. It is correct for the super-saint to stay hidden until someone threatens to lynch them.

This is a setup where scum can gain a significant advantage from being the only player who understands the game, so I would be pretty surprised to see scum!LuckyOwl volunteer this analysis, especially when they could plausibly claim ignorance.

On the other hand:

Neither does the mafia, likes eh, but I guess I should have thought of that before being quite so bold...

Eh. Maybe Luckyowl can’t drag out the game if they’re one of the choices on the block.

This strikes me as suspicious. hector's first post was correct - it's safe to immediately vote as townie, and realistically it's unlikely that the mafia will follow a super-saint vote either. But what is the meaning of this walk-back, hector? What do you think you "should have thought of" before making this vote?

Luckyowl has claimed to be a vanilla townie, which suits me, because that means they’re scum.

This post strikes me as dishonest. One of LuckyOwl's posts did a good job of explaining why a super-saint would want to hide their claim. In fact, this post also clearly displayed some awareness that hiding your status as the super-saint could be beneficial:

I was hoping to it a bit more activity before bedtime, but I guess it is Sunday.

Hopefully I don’t wake up to having been quickhammered.

Or maybe I want that to happen? Oow^oooo_oooo^oooo

*smashes a wine bottle on the floor and jumps out the window*

So given this, why would you immediately assume that LuckyOwl's townie claim is real and call him scum for it?

[hector13]

So both of you have claimed townie? How interesting. I can tell you now that both of you are lying.

I hate you.

I am currently more inclined to trust LuckyOwl, and I will lay out why.

This post from LuckyOwl:

Hector13. If you're saint then you really put me in a good position here. Now the Mafioso must be careful who they choose. But if you're Mafioso then our fate is whatever the saint! Leafsnail chooses. They win regardless of the alignment. However..if they don't randomly pick one of us. Then that means. We might have 2 possible scenario.

A: Town ^ Saint
           
       Mafia


B: Mafia ^ Saint

       Town

In both instances. Townie, and scum must be careful who they choose. The Mafia! Leafsnail will try to find a saint slip. The Town! Leafsnail will try to find a scum slip. If we're in scenario A. Then we have to be careful not to do a saint slip. If we're in scenario B. Then you'll have to make me look scummy and I'll have to make you look scummy. I hope we're in a scenario A. Since then we can turn the vote onto Leafsnail. But that's only if we can build trust with on another before the Mafia! Leafsnail figure out the saint.

Is actually a good summary of how SS3 works. As long as the super-saint hasn't claimed the mafia cannot safely hammer. It is correct for the super-saint to stay hidden until someone threatens to lynch them.

This is a setup where scum can gain a significant advantage from being the only player who understands the game, so I would be pretty surprised to see scum!LuckyOwl volunteer this analysis, especially when they could plausibly claim ignorance.

On the other hand, scum gain a significant disadvantage by not understanding the game. Rocket surgery, it is not. We are each one of two things from everyone else's perspective, the trick is figuring that out. I could go further into possible means for each player to win the game, but that would be a pointless endeavour because it doesn't mean anything.

Thus, knowing how the game works isn't alignment indicative. I'm slightly disgusted that you appear to think it is given I'm pretty much beatifying you later.

On the other hand:

Neither does the mafia, likes eh, but I guess I should have thought of that before being quite so bold...

Eh. Maybe Luckyowl can’t drag out the game if they’re one of the choices on the block.

This strikes me as suspicious. hector's first post was correct - it's safe to immediately vote as townie, and realistically it's unlikely that the mafia will follow a super-saint vote either. But what is the meaning of this walk-back, hector? What do you think you "should have thought of" before making this vote?

What did I walk back? I maintained my vote on Luckyowl. Actions speak louder than words, yes?

The thing I "should have thought of" was that scum have much better reason to be aggressive than town, as they lose nothing by being the first vote on a wagon, and could potentially lose the game by being the second.

I considered unvoting after Luckyowl voted, because having two people voting means, from my perspective, there's a 50% chance they're both town, and being an anxious depressive made that wholly unpleasant, but logic/hope came to the rescue:

Luckyowl has claimed to be a vanilla townie, which suits me, because that means they’re scum.

This post strikes me as dishonest. One of LuckyOwl's posts did a good job of explaining why a super-saint would want to hide their claim. In fact, this post also clearly displayed some awareness that hiding your status as the super-saint could be beneficial:

It probably strikes you as dishonest because it is dishonest. Well... disingenuous is a more apt adjective.

I know you tend toward a methodically logical playstyle - something I think is to be lauded and should be how we all do it, notice me senpai - and you're not going to make rash decisions (part of the reason I voted Luckyowl first, though I also wanted to avoid torturing everyone reading this by putting Luckyowl in a position to decide the game) so I felt safe in the knowledge that even scum!Leafsnail isn't going to hammer anyone until they figure out who the super-saint is.

More on this:

I was hoping to it a bit more activity before bedtime, but I guess it is Sunday.

Hopefully I don’t wake up to having been quickhammered.

Or maybe I want that to happen? Oow^oooo_oooo^oooo

*smashes a wine bottle on the floor and jumps out the window*

So given this, why would you immediately assume that LuckyOwl's townie claim is real and call him scum for it?

Because showing certainty in uncertain situations tends to provoke comment. We have 72 hours, so we need to get into content super-fast. Sitting around asking stupid RVS questions won't cut it.

I voted Luckyowl so they would respond, I displayed uncertainty/ignorance on optimum strategy because I know you would have thought about it, and I displayed certainty over Luckyowl's effective claim so you would have to respond.

Now I'm letting you both know what I was doing, and we can get into some actual meat.


Leafsnail

Why are you indicating trust toward Luckyowl over non-alignment-indicative things?


Luckyowl

You understand the framework of the game, but your comments so far just describe mechanically what's happening. What are you going to do to figure out which of Leafsnail or I to trust, and/or get one of us to trust you?

[Leafsnail]

On the other hand, scum gain a significant disadvantage by not understanding the game. Rocket surgery, it is not. We are each one of two things from everyone else's perspective, the trick is figuring that out. I could go further into possible means for each player to win the game, but that would be a pointless endeavour because it doesn't mean anything.

Thus, knowing how the game works isn't alignment indicative. I'm slightly disgusted that you appear to think it is given I'm pretty much beatifying you later.

Leafsnail

Why are you indicating trust toward Luckyowl over non-alignment-indicative things?

Knowing how the game works inside your head isn't alignment indicative in and of itself, no. But sharing that information with other players is, to some degree. A town player benefits from his fellow townie also understanding the game. A scum player does not benefit from the opposing town players doing so.

This is the contrast I saw in those early posts. LuckyOwl has, I feel, demonstrated insight into how the setup works and shared it with the thread. You on the other hand have I think demonstrated some awareness (with your initial vote and the comment about bluffing being a super saint) but have not made any attempt to explain - in fact I'd go further and say that some of your posts are potentially misleading.

You do say further down in your post that you voted LO rather than me because you trusted me not to rush to a hammer, and I do understand that. But town!LO misunderstanding the setup could still be a problem for you if you're on the same team. I have the same objection to you declaring that he has to be scum even as an RVS tactic - what if LO were to take the bait and refuse to unvote you?

What did I walk back? I maintained my vote on Luckyowl. Actions speak louder than words, yes?

The thing I "should have thought of" was that scum have much better reason to be aggressive than town, as they lose nothing by being the first vote on a wagon, and could potentially lose the game by being the second.

This isn't right. A townie has just as good a reason to be aggressive - they also win by being the first player on a super-saint lynch. I... thought you already realized this? Why else would you vote first?

Also that post just felt self-conscious to me, a scramble to distance yourself from appearing as mafia. I accept there is some need to care about what alignment you appear as even when you're playing town, but usually working out who's playing as which alignment is more at the fore in that case.

Overall I really appreciate that you opened the day with substantive content because it made the game a lot more interesting. But I'm struggling to build a mental model for you that makes sense - the amount you know about the setup seems to vary from post to post.

[hector13]

On the other hand, scum gain a significant disadvantage by not understanding the game. Rocket surgery, it is not. We are each one of two things from everyone else's perspective, the trick is figuring that out. I could go further into possible means for each player to win the game, but that would be a pointless endeavour because it doesn't mean anything.

Thus, knowing how the game works isn't alignment indicative. I'm slightly disgusted that you appear to think it is given I'm pretty much beatifying you later.

Leafsnail

Why are you indicating trust toward Luckyowl over non-alignment-indicative things?

Knowing how the game works inside your head isn't alignment indicative in and of itself, no. But sharing that information with other players is, to some degree. A town player benefits from his fellow townie also understanding the game. A scum player does not benefit from the opposing town players doing so.

This is the contrast I saw in those early posts. LuckyOwl has, I feel, demonstrated insight into how the setup works and shared it with the thread. You on the other hand have I think demonstrated some awareness (with your initial vote and the comment about bluffing being a super saint) but have not made any attempt to explain - in fact I'd go further and say that some of your posts are potentially misleading.

I've already said that me misleading was a means toward getting out of the quagmire that is RVS. I hate RVS, and I will do anything to get out of it.

I don't agree with you that sharing how the game works is alignment indicative at all. I have, on plenty of occasions, offered mechanical advice on the game as scum in an effort to come across as town. Usually in RVS, because staying in RVS for as long as possible is a good thing for scum, and chatting about mechanical theory is a tremendous way of keeping that going.

Why are you so focused on our knowledge of the mechanics, again?

You do say further down in your post that you voted LO rather than me because you trusted me not to rush to a hammer, and I do understand that. But town!LO misunderstanding the setup could still be a problem for you if you're on the same team. I have the same objection to you declaring that he has to be scum even as an RVS tactic - what if LO were to take the bait and refuse to unvote you?

*shrugs* shit happens. If Luckyowl didn't understand the setup prior to the game starting, I don't think Luckyowl would understand the setup during the game no matter how many times it was explained, in part because they wouldn't necessarily know whether or not to trust what's being said by the two other players in the game.

Should I let another player's naivete move me away from the plays I think are the best for my team? That's a hard no from me.

What did I walk back? I maintained my vote on Luckyowl. Actions speak louder than words, yes?

The thing I "should have thought of" was that scum have much better reason to be aggressive than town, as they lose nothing by being the first vote on a wagon, and could potentially lose the game by being the second.

This isn't right. A townie has just as good a reason to be aggressive - they also win by being the first player on a super-saint lynch. I... thought you already realized this? Why else would you vote first?

We appear to be talking from slightly different perspectives here. I'm talking from the mechanical perspective that the two vanilla players are going to look very similar in the early game because they each have something to gain by being aggressive. The VT want the mafia to be the hammer vote on any lynch, while the goon wants to avoid being the hammer vote on the lynch.

Basically, I think this is where the disconnect lies. These two posts should really be read as one:

*flips a coin*

*completely ignores this*

LuckyOwl

Town can win by lynching scum, or by scum hammering the wrong townie.

We got nothing to lose by being aggressive.

Neither does the mafia, likes eh, but I guess I should have thought of that before being quite so bold...

Eh. Maybe Luckyowl can’t drag out the game if they’re one of the choices on the block.

"Town can win by lynching scum, or scum hammering the wrong townie. We have nothing to lose by being aggressive... neither does the mafia though, but I guess I should have though of that earlier."

The bolded part is the misleading part, which I touch on in the final part of this post.

Also that post just felt self-conscious to me, a scramble to distance yourself from appearing as mafia. I accept there is some need to care about what alignment you appear as even when you're playing town, but usually working out who's playing as which alignment is more at the fore in that case.

I'm a bit self-conscious. Despite the "bizarre RVS moves to get the game moving" being a staple of my game, I'm surprisingly inept at talking my way out of it after the fact. I have over-explained and been told I'm trying to get out of a bad situation, I've under-explained and got annoyed at everyone's questions, I just need to find the sweet spot. I could stop doing it but... I think it's the best way to get out of RVS.

I let you know why I did what I did, if I did a good job, cool beans, if I didn't, I guess I found another way not to make a lightbulb explain my nonsense.

Overall I really appreciate that you opened the day with substantive content because it made the game a lot more interesting. But I'm struggling to build a mental model for you that makes sense - the amount you know about the setup seems to vary from post to post.

By design, yes. My first couple of posts were to paint me as a somewhat overeager VT, get things moving. After Luckyowl voted me, I feigned the confidence of my read on Luckyowl to prompt you to do things so you could be read more easily. After you posted, I had to lift the kimono a little bit and explain what I was doing, lest we get distracted by discussing hector13's RVS strategems.

This doesn't really explain what I know about the game, but... I don't think mechanics are important, and I'm not entirely sure why we're still talking about them.

[Secretdorf]

Votebox

Luckyowl (1) - Hector13

Hector13 (1) - Luckyowl

Not voting - Leafsnail

>>> Need 2 to hammer. Time ends in approximately 41 hours.

[Leafsnail]

Luckyowl: What are your thoughts on this discussion? Why aren't you posting? We are running out of time. I am not prepared to let you skate by without having engaged with me at all - if you have not posted by tomorrow I will hammer you.

I don't agree with you that sharing how the game works is alignment indicative at all. I have, on plenty of occasions, offered mechanical advice on the game as scum in an effort to come across as town. Usually in RVS, because staying in RVS for as long as possible is a good thing for scum, and chatting about mechanical theory is a tremendous way of keeping that going.

Why are you so focused on our knowledge of the mechanics, again?

I am "focused" on it because it is one of the few things that has happened in this very short and limited game. But yes, it is true that mafia can offer information to appear helpful.

The rest of your explanation... I think basically tracks for me. I feel some honesty from it. With that said...

hector13: Are you bothered by LuckyOwl's lack of posting for such a long period during such a short game? Who do you think is mafia?

[hector13]

PFP

Given Luckyowl’s apparent complete disregard for posting and your focus on mechanics (I get why you’re focused on that part though, given it comprises the entirety of Luckyowl’s contribution and the setup is a bit different) I’m not entirely sure re:who’s scum. So yeah, them not posting is horrible. They offered something along the lines of a running commentary in the previous two quick games, though that also came across as a bit like gloating too... their silence could be anxious newscum? But they also flipped a coin to decide the last game so it could be that they don’t know what to do.

*sigh* it makes this difficult.

The fact you haven’t hammered anyone yet... I think that probably means you’re town? Or you’re scum and haven’t figured me out yet.

As a kinda-sorta aside, I usually go back and forth on the idea that policy lynching lurkers is a good thing (early doors that is) because I evidently think being active is the most important thing for a number of raisins, so... you currently get the benefit of the doubt in that regard, because we’ve had a back and forth, you and I, and it hasn’t been particularly enlightening, but at least you’re making an effort, I guess?

I need to work on brevity.

TL;dr Luckyowl needs to engage wholeheartedly with the game between now and the deadline, for everyone’s sake.

[hector13]

MOD: Could Luckyowl get a prod? They were active around 12 hours ago but haven’t posted anything since their last post in the game. Maybe they just forgot about us.

[Luckyowl]

Hector you're scum.