Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Toaster]

ToonyMan:

@Toaster:
Interesting, I didn't think of two mafia teams. The other mafia team would surely be suspicious of two people claiming each other though? 4mask and IcyTea would be completely outed, not that I would put it past them. Anti-town and anti-mafia behavior!

Yeah, that would be an oddball claim.  In a world where there are indeed two mafia teams, 4maskwolf and IcyTea are priority targets as either high-tier townies or the Big Unknown Enemy Scum.  That said, if they are actually town, then killing one practically confirms the other, assuming useful role flips in this game.  Heading further down this road is getting deep into the WIFOM, so I'd rather analyze their behavior.  I've already worked IcyTea some, and now 4mask has finally given me something to work with.



4maskwolf:

I find it very believable that IcyTea and 4mask are on the same team.  Which team... my gut's trying to tell me that we have two mafia teams here.

Side note: If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that mafia!IC and mafia!4mask, knowing for a fact that there's another scum team out there (since our scum team would only have two members but webadict said there were four scum), would just decide "let's claim a size two mason team, the exact size of the team the other scum team is looking for, on D1 while under no pressure" and just assume that everything would work out for us?

Sounds like suicide with extra steps tbh.

See, that's the biggest point in your favor right now.  The biggest counterpoint is that... you two claimed at all.  It's a thing that is out there for all the world to see, and as far as I can tell, no one disbelieves that you two are tied together somehow.  I think some of the more oddball theories like dayconvert cult are bad, but that doesn't mean I think your alignment is town.  It does mean that everything either of you does is cast through the lens of this claim.

Anyway, I've been waiting for your reads on those two specifically because of this post and your earlier vote on Fallacy.  I wanted to compare the two picks you weren't voting to your case on the one to whom you were voting, as well as your past vote on Fallacy, and my results are mixed.  Your read on Fallacy seems developed, and consistent enough of your behavior that I'm fine with it.

But what about Jim?  Turns out I'm not the only one who asked you about that post...

4maskwolf: do you wanna play parchesi with me? I'll start with a simple question. Who do you think might be the Mafioso?

Okay yeah if I'm gonna roast people I deserve to have it thrown back in my face.

So far my scumpicks are Jim Groovester and Toonyman.  Toaster and Nirur Torir have managed to slip beneath my notice this game and I need to go take a look over them later today.  Others are all neutral, town, or Fallacy who I need to give a full reread to.

What has Jim Groovester and ToonyMan have done that seems scummy so far?

... and you never answered LuckyOwl either.  Why?  You seem very hesitant to talk about Jim other than to call him scum.  In fact, this post and this post seem to be your only other mentions of him prior to recently, and it's just to call him scum.  After repeatedly prodding you, I get this post and...

I already noted that I'm not satisfied with saying much of anything about Jim.

Except you're content with calling him scum three times.  It's bugging me, and I had you pegged for a reread before you dropped the mason claim anyway; my mental state yesterday that you might be leaning scum.  The mason claim spun that sideways and I'm no longer sure, but you consistently fail to give a good answer here.  You're waffling awfully hard on if Jim is scum or not.

[Vector]

Blech. This is the wildest D1 I've been part of in a long, long time, and the most activity this subforum has had in . . . almost 2 years, it looks like.

RE the "masons:" I'll admit that I haven't been able to see a good reason to claim at this point of the Day, but also that I've been missing some of the myriad details flying back and forth (and don't especially care to catch them, as I disagree with Dolores that big enough WoTs will always catch scum. You clearly didn't play with Dakarian). Yes, both ICT and 4mask have had some heat on themselves, but most of ICT's heat has been self-inflicted (as has 4mask's, for lurking). Neither was remotely close to being lynched.

Another possibility is that ICT and 4mask are on a 4-person scumteam and claiming masons because they betrayed by accident that they were in private contact.

If they are actual, mutual-town masons, I struggle to see this D1 claim as a good thing. Being in a masonchat is an advantage similar to being a doctor or a cop. Overall, I'm disinclined to trust anyone who comes out and says "I'm a cop, I'm a cop!" or whatever on D1. That's a big cup of WIFOM and a gift to the scum.


Anyway . . . looking back through TM's posting history . . .

[Vector]

RVS/Earlygame

We've discussed this, but RVS focused on survival questions.

Spoiler: A lot of responding without a lot of hunting. (click to show/hide)

@TricMagic:

@TricMagic:
Riddle me this, if you had a day ability would you use it Day 1?

Absolutely, in fact I already have! Or maybe not and I'm trickin ya.

How delightfully...dishonest.

dolores, why all the megaposts? Toonyman, why no reaction? Or did I miss it in the walls of posts? And Caz, why am I voting you?

...I'm not going to be posting every hour of the day. If I'm online expect something in a timely manner. I plan on being online everyday.


@IcyTea:

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

There's a few reasons. None of them are "because you're town". I'm going to assume bad play for now though.


@Vector:

@Jim Groovester:
Where's Sigma? Do you think you'll survive Day 1 and Night 1? Which one is more likely and why?
@dolores:
Do you think you have a chance of winning this game? Do you think you'll survive to the end as well?

Can you speak to why half your questions refer to survival, Toony?

You're right. Must be the month long Battle Royale I spent on a space station in BP3...

(Now that I think about it, I was Battle Royale in BYOR14 so that's kind of a funny mention too.)


@dolores:

the fossil players

Oof.

@dolores:
Do you think you have a chance of winning this game? Do you think you'll survive to the end as well?

Yes. I'm the best player here and I'm probably the least likely to get screwed out of having access to the vanilla town wincon, so I expect that wincon is more likely than not to come to fruition, even if substantial portions of the rest of town lose access to it.
Not especially. There's a good chance that I die to something semi-global that bypasses my ability, and I'm less likely to get around that than others. I'm not going to get lynched outside of mechanical (cult victory, vote manipulation, the rest of town dying etc.) reasons though, if that's what you meant.

Getting voted and lynched wouldn't count as being targeted by an ability though right?

@Caz:

I'm already confused by my role ;_;

I think you're playing dumb. Why act incompetent unless you're anti-town?

I disagree, I think Caz is just anti-town on a meta level right now. Their responses are so guilelessly useless it doesn't seem scummy at all.
ToonyMan: do you think Caz is scummy or just not-towny?

Anti-town for now.

. . . . Look, I've gone through all of the early game posts and read them multiple times. There's a lot of posting on things like "that's not scumhunting!" (this isn't pressure!) and a lot of "WTF are you doing LuckyOwl." There's not a lot that I consider to be of serious interest that hasn't been gone over and over and over by other players, so my point is: there's a lot of these quick back-and-forths and not that much by way of reads/direct attacks until the post I link below (NOT trying to say that he's inactive, just that he's pinging people pretty lightly).

Toony Readlist & Masonclaims - starting from this post.

First: Toony posts 19 times after this, which is proportionally more than half of what he had posted to date. A lot of it comes in small bursts. He's clearly nervous.

@4mask & IcyTea:

Icy tea and I are masons.

Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

Well, I'm not claiming shit unless I'm going to die in a few minutes from a lynch. I don't like everybody claiming on Day 1. If scum want to hammer to silence me before I can claim feel free.

The first part of this is jumpy, and the second part is defeatist.


----> Anyway, there's a lot of back-and-forthing here about what it means to be masons and whatnot, but I'm only going to respond to the parts I find interesting, such as:

Spoiler: Responses to my attack on readlist; my answers in teal (click to show/hide)

@Vector:

As you all know, Toony hasn't been posting that much or that involved. Then he posts a big 'ol wall of text. Part of that wall is of particular interest to me.

I think I've been posting plenty. Every real-life day since the day started I've done at least one big post and one small post. I don't like typing huge paragraphs but I would consider my participation "involved".

True, you're posting plenty. But you've been a bit more on the sidelines than you often are, and your participation before that wall was largely in short bursts. I didn't mean to be an asshole (for all I know you're working), just to point out that it's easy to miss interesting things sometimes in a wall.

1. There is not a lot of evidence mentioned in relationship to this list. For example, I honestly can't recall anything I ever said that could be remotely construed as "buddying." The "seems calculated part," sure, I calculate. Point is: not a lot of evidence mentioned for the first player Toony is claiming to have scummy behavior. You can examine the rest of the list yourself.

1. You voted TricMagic immediately after I did, for the same reasons.
2. You didn't pressure me at the start of the day at all, until I pointed it out. Your response after.

Me and then you on ICT. Me and you on jesters. (hover for URLs).

Yes, 50 posts after you said I hadn't interacted with you, and after eliminating a bunch of other players, I posted a readlist which included you on it. I'm just gonna say that calling that throwaway line at the bottom of your post "pressure" is a little ridiculous.

I voted for Tric after kicking the data out of them that led you to vote for them. Voting for someone over data that I collected is very reasonable.

2. Having assembled a lot of these lists as scum in my day, one of the key things you want to do is characterize people broadly as scummy without pointing to specific actions and posts. This covers your butt on later days ("I'm suspicious of everyone, that's why I don't have cases! Sure, let's join another bandwagon", or alternatively "funny how my suspects keep flipping town, how annoying, but you must recall that so-and-so did something scummy a long time ago as I mentioned"). It also helps you keep out of the spotlight by not saying too much. People can't use your lists to figure out who your buddies are because you say that everyone is suspicious.

Why is suspecting most players on Day 1 a scum tell?

I've already said it twice, I'm not saying it again.

3. Check the proposed scumteams vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. The claim is that NQT, 4mask, and juicebox have a scum lean and that ICT is lying a lot. Of these four, only one made the list of proposed scumteams. He also manages to suggest that 7 out of 16 players are his candidates for being on the teams he mentions. In the process, he points the finger at every veteran player other than himself.

1. Scum lean for anybody I thought was null, but also not posting much.
2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.
3. Maybe I suspect veteran players more because they should know better?

So . . . scum lean = lurking? The point here isn't about whether or not you're right about some of your allegations, the point is that the sheer NUMBER of them and the way that they're composed is a little suspicious! But my point stands: what you've written here doesn't make sense to me as a town-oriented readlist.

-> Making a meta point: Please recall what Toonyman is famous for, the Toony Tunnel. Note that "calling everyone scum" is quite literally the opposite of that.

You're embarrassing me. If you're going to meta scum tell me, then at least realize I haven't wanted to associate with "Toony Tunnel" since like 2011. Look at my play in games around like 2012-2015, I think those hold up best to how I want to play mafia.

Without any intent of disrespect, I know you play differently than you used to. I also feel that you still latch onto people and refuse to let go when you're town and act a lot more casual and friendly as scum.

4. Along those lines, check who Toony has been interacting with and voting vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. He's been allowing a hell of a lot to slide.

You only decided to go "fuck it' after Jim pushed you into action. How do you feel about Leafsnail as well then?

Trying to put the heat on somebody else, eh?

I think he's scum, but we're talking about you right now. And, additionally: I have something solid on you, but all I have on Leafy right now is that he's been lurking on Christmas. So no dice, I'm still more worried about you, my man.

5. We've all claimed that it would be better to lynch scum than a third party D1 if we can do it. Toony apparently has a strong belief that ICT and Leafsnail are scum. Jim and FallacyofUrist make up the other two pieces of, in his point of view, an "obvious" scumteam. There is, frankly, enough evidence to hang FoU ten times over if Toony were actually motivated to do anything about the "obvious scum." ICT was the main focus of discussion for a long time. Why is he still voting Tric?

Because at best TricMagic isn't helping town and is third-party. I think you and Leafsnail would be my next votes if Tric was off the table.

This really doesn't mesh with all of the attention you were putting on ICT (pre-mason claim).

@Heydude:
It seems I was wrong about the deadline being tonight. Do you believe my soft-claim on you? Who's scum?

Why would a cop need to ask the target of his investigation whether that target believes he is town?

[IcyTea31]

Here's the events regarding claimed times:
-heydude claims a time, first
-ICT claims the a actually slightly different time, second
If heydude6 is lying, he must have been broadly aware of when the contract would be sent (and perhaps his time is closer when it was sent off) - which would require him to be the contract sender or on it's team.
If ICT is lying, he was aware of heydude6's claimed time and could base his claim on that - this places no requirements on ICT, and could even have been done as town (why tho).

I think there's a little confusion here. When I said "within a couple minutes" I was affirming the claim of the time, not denying it. Heydude claims to have received the message at 10:02:06. My PM is timestamped 05:01:07. Keeping in mind time zones, that's 59 seconds between them. I'd say that's about the time it took for webadict to copy-paste the message.

Actually, that also means we got the same flavour in it, so here's a question to confirm to each other that neither was the one who sent the contract:

Heydude6: Why did the imp ask for a tip, and how much did you give it?

They're twisting everything I say the same way dolores says I'm responding to NJW2000, I don't get it.

--

4mask and IcyTea don't care what I have to say.

I dismissed your answers to my questions because they didn't answer the question. Why did you ask how the moderator defines "mason" when it was me and not the mod who used that word, and you display understanding of techniques that require you to already know what a mason is? "I just have to doublecheck, maybe webadict's 'mason' actually means 'mafia' or 'cult'!" is not a good answer, especially when you had already said you believe the mason claim.

There's asking questions, and then there's acting dumb to hide your rolefishing.

If they are actual, mutual-town masons, I struggle to see this D1 claim as a good thing. Being in a masonchat is an advantage similar to being a doctor or a cop. Overall, I'm disinclined to trust anyone who comes out and says "I'm a cop, I'm a cop!" or whatever on D1. That's a big cup of WIFOM and a gift to the scum.

The general strategy for masons is to make the claim as early as possible, because the claim becomes less credible on later days. (Or would you trust a D3 mason claim more if you asked why someone had been buddying to or distancing someone else for the whole game so far?) However, since I went for a D1 strategy that requires me not to be confirmed town, we delayed it a bit.

The advantage to scum isn't big, either, as they know that killing one of us will confirm the other; they'd have to lynch one and then nightkill the other to avoid creating a completely confirmed townie, so the play is to discredit the masonry itself, not any single player in it.

[dolores]

Posting from laptop I fully expect to die and eat a post or three dozen. I'm away from my machine for the next maybe 60hrs, so don't expect another proper wall of text like the cases which take however many hours to write in that timeframe.

I think there's a little confusion here. When I said "within a couple minutes" I was affirming the claim of the time, not denying it. Heydude claims to have received the message at 10:02:06. My PM is timestamped 05:01:07. Keeping in mind time zones, that's 59 seconds between them. I'd say that's about the time it took for webadict to copy-paste the message.

No, I got that. I was going to write 'claims the same time' and originally and only didn't because it isn't strictly true. I was thinking that the timing was the other way around (your was a minute after heydude's), however.
My points were:
-that you (ICT) could match the timing however you wanted if you were lying, since heydude claimed first
-that contract-sender-aligned!heydude could match the timing however he wanted because he had insider knowledge
-Neither of the above require you to both be on the same team
That's it.
It does scans as odd to me for a contractor!heydude to get wrong the time a truthful!ICT would see by guessing too far in the future, but maybe he was trying to correct for a delay in the mod or whatever and overshot it, I dunno. I think this kind of WIFOM is ultimately fruitless.

Actually, that also means we got the same flavour in it, so here's a question to confirm to each other that neither was the one who sent the contract:

Do you have a compelling reason to think that webadict didn't write the contracts up at the same time then send each pm off one after another?
Not that that would mean you couldn't have the same flavor, just that it's possible you don't.

[IcyTea31]

Do you have a compelling reason to think that webadict didn't write the contracts up at the same time then send each pm off one after another?

Webadict is lazy. He's disclosed that several rules decisions so far have been to reduce the amount of work he has to do, so I doubt he'd take the time to write two flavours for the same action. I don't know what hector's role in the moderation team is, but I doubt it's full-time flavour-writing, either.

But that doubt is for if heydude didn't receive the same flavour. If he did, I can conclude he's not the one who sent the contract.

[heydude6]

We definitely don’t have the same flavour, mine was tailored specifically to my role and my imp didn’t ask for a tip at all. He just said I was no fun.

Still, this question all but confirms that Iceytea is town to me. A user may know what an ability does mechanically, but the role PM doesn’t tell you how it works flavourwise. Beezlebub may know that his ability sends a contract with X terms, but it’s unlikely that he knows that Webadict would use an imp to do it.

What this means is that Iceytea has knowledge that could only be obtained if he received a contract. This knowledge happens to match my own so I know it’s correct. There’s no way scum would send a contract to one of their own teamates so Iceytea is good as town. Unless he’s third party.

[dolores]

Or you're scum together, and this is the greatest ruse in mafia history.

[TricMagic]

And my hat is gone.. Great. We'll, hopefully that is from a town role, though why a theif would steal it is in question.

This has been a long day, not helped by lack of energy yesterday. This post is mostly an update to my status as being hatless.

[notquitethere]

heydude6
To address your more serious point:

Spoiler: Speculation (click to show/hide)

I already explained why rolefishing benefits scum, but I am particularly bothered by the one done against Tricmagic. In addition to a really threatening tone, if he really is gonna die tonight, then we'll find out on his flip. This question only has a point if Tric survives, but who would be benefiting from that knowledge in this case? Without his hats, Tric can't really do much. He definitely can't help the scum tonight. I think this question is only being asked because scum wants to know if Tric could become a threat to them in the future. If they have one of his hats, then he is already their enemy. The only question left to ask at that point then, is whether he needs to be taken care of. If they really want that information though, I'd rather have them waste their scumkill to get it.

You seem to be missing that I wanted Tric to be honest about whether they were 3rd party. I've played in games as a benign 3rd party and often making an early claim to that effect is the best move for them. Moreover, I don't want to waste a lynch on someone who isn't anti-town. Specifically: mafia, an SK, cultist, executioner or assassin. It's anti-town to spend momentum on killing anyone who isn't in that group.  That make sense?


Tric

And my hat is gone.. Great. We'll, hopefully that is from a town role, though why a theif would steal it is in question.

I couldn't see your answer to my question before. Are you a 3rd party and if so, which?

[TricMagic]

No, I'm not. I just need hats to use them most effectively, and now I have none. Which kinda makes the badge I bought a bit useless as I'm powerless.

[notquitethere]

To return to my earlier work... If past NQT wanted to lynch out of this grouping, where does the current arrangements leave us now:

1 - Cases Of Dubious Substance

LuckyOwl, Leafsnail, Toaster, Jim Groovester, IcyTea31

Heydude is pretty clearly town and they seem to think that they have mechanically confirmed IcyTea31. Plus their mason claim with 4mask would be an unusual play for scum who tend to be more cautious. So let's strike ICT off the list.

Luckyowl, FallacyofUrist, do you think the latest info on ICT should change your vote?

Heydude, are you pushing for a FOU lynch today? Why should we join you in this?


Tric

No, I'm not. I just need hats to use them most effectively, and now I have none. Which kinda makes the badge I bought a bit useless as I'm powerless.

If you're powerless then will you be using the Comment power for your night action then?

[webadict]

:|

People getting awfully close to modkilling territory. The fuck, guys?

[TricMagic]

Probably, maybe see what it does to me. Maybe I can turn myself into a third-party with it.


?

[heydude6]

Unvote

I changed my mind about lynching Fallacy a long time ago. It’s just that I hadn’t yet found anyone who I feel about strongly enough to move my vote to. I’ll probably put it on Toony eventually (I prefer lynching him to Tric), but I want to look through everyone’s posts again first to see if I can come up with reads.

:|

People getting awfully close to modkilling territory. The fuck, guys?

Wait, what happened? Did it have anything to do with me or Iceytea? He brought up the flavour first.