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[Urist McUristUrist]

Dear Toady/Dwarf fortress community,

Hi ya! How ya doing? I have been playing DF and loving it. I have loved this community for a long time but have finally gotten into playing Fortress mode! But as I bisexual man I just wanted to now if Lgbtqia+ releationships would ever be added to the game? I would really liked to be able to have some gay dwarfs and some trans or non binary dwarfs if you could? I jsut really love this game and to me adding that would add some much to the relationship meqanic! Please consider it!

Sincerely,
Causale Fantasy Writing

What is "ia"? Did I miss an acronym update or is this just a bait thread?

[Starver]

"..., Intersex, Asexual, ..." often. And/or "Allied" (*waves*?), but that's usually a second A or assumed to be in the +.

I can feel a storm coming on.

I remember the 'storm' from the whole partner-preference addition. Storm in a teacup, albeit a notable tempest at the time, and I presume all those who significantly cared (in a negative way) just went away or shut up about it.

[cauaule fantasy writing]

Hey everbody! New idea. It could be cool in adventure mode if you could be able to control your dwarfs pronouns.


   

[cauaule fantasy writing]

New idea i think in adveture mode you should be able to control your pronouns.

[Starver]

(We heard you the first time. )

I think if you go the whole hog with the full suggestion from your opening post, that'd be a given. Set upon CharGen, at least. Dynamically during the game would perhaps be based upon the standard identity/personation elements that are being introduced (more for Reputation/Infamy reasons) with appropriate Caste support if you needed non-binary neologisms.And perhaps the odd 'magical' interaction when we get a full range of possible -mancing that isn't just necro-.


But remember that this is a world-generator/simulator, with a progressive nod to LGBTetc, rather than a sexuality-generator/simulator. (Toady isn't Fenoxo. Though has anyone ever seen them both in the same room?) There's at least as much reason to consider a good economic update (to satisfy the marginalised Luxuries/Gold/Barter/Taxation/Investment/Arbitrage/+ community) as a higher priority.

[delphonso]

(to satisfy the marginalised Luxuries/Gold/Barter/Taxation/Investment/Arbitrage/+ community) as a higher priority.

You forgot "Quotations"

I overall agree - I'm happy that homosexuality and asexuality are in the game, though my dwarves are all worked to death and never form relationships at all.

Choosing pronouns would be a cool addition and I don't see it being overly difficult.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm not sure I see the value in adding gendered pronouns or culturally mandated sex roles. It seems unilaterally better for everyone if it's just not something anyone cares about, ie, not implemented, rather than making some characters feel oppressed for the sake of letting them have an oppression story, doesn't it? There's no particular reason why it needs to matter what clothing items people are choosing, for example.

[GOTOTOTOE]

im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name

[PetGreySquirrel]

Honestly, I'm pretty fond of gender being almost a non-factor in DF, and I'm not really sure I want my dwarves developing cultural gender norms. I do find the idea of my dwarves becoming depressive or tantrum-ey from dysphoria kind of interesting, but, I'm not sure that's worth the trade-off of gender-based norms and expectations being included in the game (even if they're procedurally generated per civilization.)

It wouldn't be too anachronistic to include, not just because of magic and snail people and such, but, there are some known examples of people from... basically all points of history, that nowdays are generally considered trans (there is some murkyness regarding applying modern terms to ancient people, but, comparable and as close as can be found looking through a historical lens, like St. Marinos and such.) but, as far as that goes... a dwarf of whatever orientation and physical characteristics can already wear whatever, and fill whatever role in society, and there isn't much in the way of gendered language to start with... so I don't feel like it's really lacking at the moment.

[Maximum Spin]

It wouldn't be too anachronistic to include, not just because of magic and snail people and such, but, there are some known examples of people from... basically all points of history, that nowdays are generally considered trans (there is some murkyness regarding applying modern terms to ancient people, but, comparable and as close as can be found looking through a historical lens, like St. Marinos and such.)

Pretty much all the historical examples can only be made to fit modern moulds by intentional misunderstanding of the context. For example, Marina, if she even existed at all (which is highly doubtful, as essentially all saints of the time period are likely to be works of historical fiction), is said to have lived as a monk, an office only available to men, because of her great piety; unless we had reason to believe she desired to be a man, instead of merely dressing as one as a means to an end, she's no more transsexual than Mulan. Making any such comparisons across history is patently absurd: the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there, and you can't trust the water.

[cauaule fantasy writing]

what if in adventure mode you should be able to choose your dwarfs Pronouns and sexuality. ( Is romance a thing yet in Adventuer mode? Been a while since I hoped into and done some advetureing)

[cauaule fantasy writing]

Dang it mistake thought I did not post my oringanl thing mistake sorry everyone( P.S how do delete messages sorry to bother)

[delphonso]

No way to delete posts. You can edit posts and just put [deleted] or something.

[Putnam]

im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name

Yeah, I kinda feel that if there's gonna be gender there ought to be gender, i.e. a set of societal norms that tends to be but is not necessarily correlated with sex, involving differing expectations of decorum, clothing and so on.

I would not mind it if dwarves didn't have a concept of gender at all, if only because that's actually a rather common feature in dwarves in fantasy. Plus, I kinda find the idea of only finding "girl dwarves" or "boy dwarves" as opposed to just "dwarves" in human civilization kinda neat.

[Egan_BW]

That would be a neat place to put default dwarves, I agree. Would do something to show how they're different from just being smoll diggy humans. It would probably vary a little bit more in less-default worlds, though.
The idea of procedurally generated gender roles seems cool, and also a little terrifying. To me, anyways.
I suppose this stuff is for the laws and customs arc, if Toady feels like tackling it.