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[wierd]

But but--- that kind of leadership would have required embracing SOCIALISM, and also required bold-faced hard-line instructions to businesses and business leadership, that they *WOULD* comply.


That would go against DECADES of deregulation-based rhetoric and policy, and against nearly a generation of local social policy.


Naturally, our leaders instead just tucked their heads, and hoped it would pass over like the angel of death.

[scriver]

You know what really grinds my gears? Foreign journalists who call in to our biweekly corona info giving + press meet and still persist with the moronic delusion that we had no measures at all taken before now.

Well to be fair the measures until very recently were crap. Not that the rest of Europe has done much better mind you, but I think what it´s glaring is the opportunity cost. Sweden had the opportunity to being in the not-quite-as-awful tier of covid mismanagement in Europe, alongside Norway and Finland, rather than the Ultrashit tier with UK, Spain, and the Netherlands.

If I had to guess I´d say Tegnell is about as awful as Fernando Simon, the main difference being that Tegnell has shitty ideas where Fernando Simon is criminally negligent.

No, that is not to be fair. The idea that Sweden didn't take any measures is a right out falsehood and you are wrong if you believe it.

Tegnell isn't to blame for Sweden's failure either. That's on the landthings and the citizens.

[McTraveller]

Hey who was it that works for Dollar General? I jut saw a headline suggesting they are going to "pay their employees to get a COVID-19 vaccination."

[ChairmanPoo]

You know what really grinds my gears? Foreign journalists who call in to our biweekly corona info giving + press meet and still persist with the moronic delusion that we had no measures at all taken before now.

Well to be fair the measures until very recently were crap. Not that the rest of Europe has done much better mind you, but I think what it´s glaring is the opportunity cost. Sweden had the opportunity to being in the not-quite-as-awful tier of covid mismanagement in Europe, alongside Norway and Finland, rather than the Ultrashit tier with UK, Spain, and the Netherlands.

If I had to guess I´d say Tegnell is about as awful as Fernando Simon, the main difference being that Tegnell has shitty ideas where Fernando Simon is criminally negligent.

No, that is not to be fair. The idea that Sweden didn't take any measures is a right out falsehood and you are wrong if you believe it.

Tegnell isn't to blame for Sweden's failure either. That's on the landthings and the citizens.

I didnt say no measures were taken. I said that too few measures were taken. This is true of all Europe. Moreso of Sweden

Tegnell isn't to blame for Sweden's failure either. That's on the landthings and the citizens.

Tegnell is a cunt. And while people are over the western world are doubtlessly crap at social distancing it frustrates me to see the goverments claim successes yet try to shift the blame on the population. Let me bw clear: its all on the goverment. They know very well that left to their own devices way too many people will flout restrictions even when they really should know better. Individual actors can only work individually but to contain the pandemic you need full societal drives, and its up to goverments to enforce those.

[scriver]

Tegnell is a cunt.

I've seen the mails in question, it's pure sensationalist bullshit, literally grasping a couple of sentences out of context out from god knows how many emails discussing hypotheticals.

And while people are over the western world are doubtlessly crap at social distancing it frustrates me to see the goverments claim successes yet try to shift the blame on the population. Let me bw clear: its all on the goverment. They know very well that left to their own devices way too many people will flout restrictions even when they really should know better. Individual actors can only work individually but to contain the pandemic you need full societal drives, and its up to goverments to enforce those.

No. People are not children. And while the governments may be responsible, the responsibilities fall on the responsible authorities. I already mentioned the landthings.

[martinuzz]

Psychiatrist organisations, mental healthcare organisations, child protective services, child right organisations, the national alcohol and drug abuse institute, UNICEF and about 50 more organisations have written a plea to the dutch government to please re-open the schools, to stop the developmental delay and neglect children are facing now.

They say the government needs to stop focussing solely on the virus risk, but also look at the risks threatening the development of children and young people.  The demand that the government, sport organisations and schools start looking for alternative possibilities for keeping schools open in a safe way.

UNICEF has also sent a plea to all world leaders asking them to please keep the schools open

[ChairmanPoo]

Tegnell is a cunt.

I've seen the mails in question, it's pure sensationalist bullshit, literally grasping a couple of sentences out of context out from god knows how many emails discussing hypotheticals.

And while people are over the western world are doubtlessly crap at social distancing it frustrates me to see the goverments claim successes yet try to shift the blame on the population. Let me bw clear: its all on the goverment. They know very well that left to their own devices way too many people will flout restrictions even when they really should know better. Individual actors can only work individually but to contain the pandemic you need full societal drives, and its up to goverments to enforce those.

No. People are not children. And while the governments may be responsible, the responsibilities fall on the responsible authorities. I already mentioned the landthings.

I dont know what a landthing is. But I strongly disagree about the rest. Goverments should work based on freaking *reality*. And they are the executive power, not a random powerless consultation body. If they know people are not following recommendations and making the pandemic worse then the goverment bears responsability for their failure to act, specially because its within their power to do so. If they had gone to the very limit of executive power and still could not keep things under control (eg if they were trying to implement a lockdown and faced a strong legal barrier that defied any attempts to surmount it) then I'd concede. But if they just "advise" caution and call it a day? Then they're very much abandoning their responsabilities

[martinuzz]

But how do you expect a government to enforce all those rules?  Can Sweden borrow 500000 police officers from you?

[ChairmanPoo]

I expect them to try at the very least. And if you think I'm talking about just Sweden then you missed a good deal of the context. Europe and the US collectively dropped the ball on this one. Badly. I dont think Sweden is particularily worse than any other western nation. Some do a bit better, some do a bit worse, but it's all the same shitty spectrum.

But how do you expect a government to enforce all those rules?  Can Sweden borrow 500000 police officers from you?

And by the by this would be more solid if noone was successful at containing the pandemic. Problem is, plenty of places enforced the rules, hard, and suppressed covid spread. It's very clear it can be done. What is missing is political will.

Heck, some European countries that were doing far better suddenly decided to ignore their own public health recommendations and tossed away the good work of months in a couple of weeks. If that's not the perfect example of executive branch failure  I dont know what it is.

[martinuzz]

I don't think you're just talking about Sweden, but hey, that was the current example being talked about. SO okay, let me rephrase..
Can you borrow the EU and US about 15 million police officers? While we're at it, do you sell concentration camps?

What more do you expect our governments to do? All public places are closed. All non-essential stores are closed, schools are closed, all jobs where that is even remotely possible have their employees work at home. No more than 2 visitors are allowed per household..

Sadly, there are a lot of people who disregard the rules. Mostly younger folks still come together illegaly in groups at each other's homes.
Is that the government's responsibility? I sure hope not, that would mean we need to turn our country into a DDR-model control and police state.

[ChairmanPoo]

A DDR state with concentration camps. Like Taiwan. Or South Korea. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. Right.

You dont have a leg to stand on and you know it.

[scriver]

Tegnell is a cunt.

I've seen the mails in question, it's pure sensationalist bullshit, literally grasping a couple of sentences out of context out from god knows how many emails discussing hypotheticals.

And while people are over the western world are doubtlessly crap at social distancing it frustrates me to see the goverments claim successes yet try to shift the blame on the population. Let me bw clear: its all on the goverment. They know very well that left to their own devices way too many people will flout restrictions even when they really should know better. Individual actors can only work individually but to contain the pandemic you need full societal drives, and its up to goverments to enforce those.

No. People are not children. And while the governments may be responsible, the responsibilities fall on the responsible authorities. I already mentioned the landthings.

I dont know what a landthing is. But I strongly disagree about the rest. Goverments should work based on freaking *reality*. And they are the executive power, not a random powerless consultation body. If they know people are not following recommendations and making the pandemic worse then the goverment bears responsability for their failure to act, specially because its within their power to do so. If they had gone to the very limit of executive power and still could not keep things under control (eg if they were trying to implement a lockdown and faced a strong legal barrier that defied any attempts to surmount it) then I'd concede. But if they just "advise" caution and call it a day? Then they're very much abandoning their responsabilities
 

The Swedish government is divided into three parts. The State, which handles the legal and some executive powers at the top level; the landthings, the regional powers who handle our healthcare and finance hospitals, health centres, and clinics; and the communes, which is the smallest sized government unit and handles the day to day running of our lives, social services from day care and schools to sickhomes and agehomes and which set the rules for how we can act in our daily lives and are also the ones in charge of inspection to see
If we follow the rules.

Tegnell is part of the state level government bodies, and his agency is in fact just a consultation body. They don't have any executive powers. They don't decide shit. Nearly all of the executive powers relevant to Sweden's screw ups are on the landthing and communal level. It is the landthings and communes that handle the elder homes and health care where we failed to keep the virus away from our elders. It is on the communes to inspect and make sure that businesses follow the guidelines. Even the ability to give the communes more ability to act does not lie with Tegnells agency, it lies with the Riksdag.

And that's kind of the problem. You don't know the first thing about how Sweden works but you're quick to call Tegnell names just because he is the only name you know. And that is bullshit.

And once again, no, people are not children, and the government are not expected to have responsibility for us as if we were children. We are responsible for ourselves. In fact, the Swedish government completely lack the legal ability to do the kind of things you want. They aren't allowed to shut people in their homes. They aren't allowed to stop people from travelling (see the All-Man's-Right laws, one of our oldest legal customs). We are a free people, and with that freedom comes responsibility. We, the people, failed to act responsibly. We failed to show solidarity, we failed to show national or patriotic or just neighbourly spirit. In my mind, our failure is the a capstone over the failures of selfish individualism over solidarist communalism. We don't get to act as if we are not responsible for our own failures and say that "it's ok to not follow the rules because my dad doesn't spank me if I do". We were given clear lines to follow. If we don't follow them, then it's not somebody else's fault when we screw up. Insert "we live in a society" meme.

[Starver]

Spoiler: Ninjaed! (click to show/hide)

I already mentioned the landthings.

I dont know what a landthing is.

Interesting factoid: "Thing" (or Ting/Ding/Tyn/+others) is a word for an assembly in the nordic languages. Which became the roots to the word that means "an item" (perhaps brought about or constructed) in English, but here it retains the meaning of "a meeting of people".

AIUI, the "Landsting" is a council-level parliament in Sweden (the national one being styled after the germanic name) although Greenland (perhaps a holdover from being a sub-territory of the Danish?) uses that nationaly.

Iceland has the Althing (I don't have the thorn character easily at hand, among other probable typography errors dotted around here), for its "all", i.e. general/national, governance. Other national bodies around the region and in history style/styled themselves as variously as the "people's" or "great" meeting, albeit in the applicable variety of scandiwegian vocabulary. The Isle Of Man has its Tynwald ("meeting field", the place still ceremoniously used, as well as the body that does the governance at all other times) supposedly the longest continually operating government in the world.

Sorry, I just find things (NPI!) like that interesting, and thought I'd share. Doubtless I've slipped up over a few misremembered details, so I can't guarantee you'd get points from it if anthing above turns out to look like the answer to a pub-quiz question in your future...

On Covid: There is significant (but not total) protection from reinfection for up to five months after the prior episode, it has been announced, which is as good as we can realistically say little more than five months since the ramp-up in general testing that was necessary to let the data-punchers confirm/falsify such a statement. And a 'Brazillian" variation is entering the field of concern (as per the Kent and South African ones), but not much more info.

[ChairmanPoo]

And that's kind of the problem. You don't know the first thing about how Sweden works but you're quick to call Tegnell names just because he is the only name you know. And that is bullshit.

No, you misunderstand. I think Tegnell is a cunt because he gives shit psychopathic advice. I know that sort of agencies are consultational bodies, and I know goverments are free to ignore them (I used to be part of one - not public health mind you- , myself). The onus of not giving shit advice is still on them. But you´re probably right, if he had said something sensible the goverment would have ignored him. It has happened elsewhere

And once again, no, people are not children, and the government are not expected to have responsibility for us as if we were children. We are responsible for ourselves.

Strongly disagree. Societal threats can only be addressed at a societal level. Once they arise, strong individualism becomes increasingly a liability.

In fact, the Swedish government completely lack the legal ability to do the kind of things you want. They aren't allowed to shut people in their homes. They aren't allowed to stop people from travelling (see the All-Man's-Right laws, one of our oldest legal customs).

New situations require new laws. The onus is on the legislative bodies to make the necessary laws.

And once again, no, people are not children, and the government are not expected to have responsibility for us as if we were children. We are responsible for ourselves. In fact, the Swedish government completely lack the legal ability to do the kind of things you want. They aren't allowed to shut people in their homes. They aren't allowed to stop people from travelling (see the All-Man's-Right laws, one of our oldest legal customs). We are a free people, and with that freedom comes responsibility. We, the people, failed to act responsibly. We failed to show solidarity, we failed to show national or patriotic or just neighbourly spirit. In my mind, our failure is the a capstone over the failures of selfish individualism over solidarist communalism. We don't get to act as if we are not responsible for our own failures and say that "it's ok to not follow the rules because my dad doesn't spank me if I do". We were given clear lines to follow. If we don't follow them, then it's not somebody else's fault when we screw up. Insert "we live in a society" meme.

Honestly I think this is all based on a vast overestimation on the responsability and behavior of groups of humans. It doesnt work like that. People as a whole are lackwits. I´m at peace with this fact. Goverments know this, so they must make decisions with this fact in mind, to the limit of their ability. When something that is happening under your watch is half-assed and you know it, and despite that you do nothing, you bear responsability for it, even if technically it was someone else fucking up. I´m not holding them to unrealistic standards: that´s how it works for me, so it should apply to them as well.

Again: This is just not about Sweden. Again, I THINK ALL EUROPE IS CRAP. Some have smaller pieces of the shit-cake, and some bigger pieces of the shit-cake, but the continent-wide level of mismanagement is outrageous. Goverments reaping the merit when things do better and then shifting the blame to the populace is gaslighting to insulting extremes.

The numbers don´t lie: Western management of the pandemic is shit. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is delusional (and if anything we´re doing WORSE than we were back in March, not better). And failure to adapt is what destroys societies.

[scriver]

Spoiler: Ninjaed! (click to show/hide)

I already mentioned the landthings.

I dont know what a landthing is.

Interesting factoid: "Thing" (or Ting/Ding/Tyn/+others) is a word for an assembly in the nordic languages. Which became the roots to the word that means "an item" (perhaps brought about or constructed) in English, but here it retains the meaning of "a meeting of people".

AIUI, the "Landsting" is a council-level parliament in Sweden (the national one being styled after the germanic name) although Greenland (perhaps a holdover from being a sub-territory of the Danish?) uses that nationaly.

Iceland has the Althing (I don't have the thorn character easily at hand, among other probable typography errors dotted around here), for its "all", i.e. general/national, governance. Other national bodies around the region and in history style/styled themselves as variously as the "people's" or "great" meeting, albeit in the applicable variety of scandiwegian vocabulary. The Isle Of Man has its Tynwald ("meeting field", the place still ceremoniously used, as well as the body that does the governance at all other times) supposedly the longest continually operating government in the world.

Sorry, I just find things (NPI!) like that interesting, and thought I'd share. Doubtless I've slipped up over a few misremembered details, so I can't guarantee you'd get points from it if anthing above turns out to look like the answer to a pub-quiz question in your future...

On second thought, "countything" might be a more suitable translation. But "landsthing" sounds more romantic and cognomative.