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[Scruiser]

In the event I were to tinker with the new features to add more magic secrets, is immortality still the only motivation that'd cause the secret to be learned in worldgen? Or has anyone been able to get other existing motives to work successfully?

I think the new update added some goals related to the villain additions: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/ex4ayg/found_this_dwarf_in_my_starting_seven_is_his_goal/ .  However, I don't think anyone has gotten any other goals to drive acquiring secrets and there hasn't been any devlogs by Toady indicating he added other goals to secrets (presumably this would be a big enough change that he would at mention adding it).  I can't find the place I saw, but I remember that someone had found (or maybe Toady mentioned), that Necromancer's can gain an additional goal that drives them to conquer the world, but this is after they are necromancers so I don't think it drives secret acquisition?

That said, if you are looking for secrets to be added to the world, you could use the modding method used in Spellcrafts mod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149426.0).  They gave several creature the SPHERE alignments and the SUPERNATURAL token, and then made many secrets with the IS_SPHERE tag and the SUPERNATURAL_LEARNING_POSSIBLE to let these creatures learn the secret and then MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE to generate slabs and allow them to record it and MUNDANE_TEACHING_POSSIBLE so they would pass on the knowledge.  This was in 44.x, presumably it will work in 47.x, and might even work better?  I've been thinking of testing out if the new villainous networking and exchange of secrets as bribes will propagate secrets that originated this way.

DEMON_UNIQUE is RAW usable in 47.x, so presumably the same approach could be used to propagate secrets through the demons that lead other Goblin civilizations.  Maybe it will also work for intelligent megabeasts that become deified in civilizations?  It isn't possible to give other civilizations demon leaders yet without adding Dark Towers as their starting site type and allowing VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL, which causes crashes if you also have RAW defined entity positions.

I suppose doling out immortality, especially if it was JUST lack of aging rather than all the other side bonuses necromancy normally grants, would be adequate if it was still essential to prevent teachings from dying out before they can be passed on...

I think immortality is needed to drive them out of their home civilization. 

Does anyone know if IS_SECRET_GOAL:IMMORTALITY will work even if the secret doesn't actually grant immortality?  I suppose I will try testing this also if no one knows...

[Random_Dragon]

I think the new update added some goals related to the villain additions: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/ex4ayg/found_this_dwarf_in_my_starting_seven_is_his_goal/ .  However, I don't think anyone has gotten any other goals to drive acquiring secrets and there hasn't been any devlogs by Toady indicating he added other goals to secrets (presumably this would be a big enough change that he would at mention adding it).  I can't find the place I saw, but I remember that someone had found (or maybe Toady mentioned), that Necromancer's can gain an additional goal that drives them to conquer the world, but this is after they are necromancers so I don't think it drives secret acquisition?

That said, if you are looking for secrets to be added to the world, you could use the modding method used in Spellcrafts mod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149426.0).  They gave several creature the SPHERE alignments and the SUPERNATURAL token, and then made many secrets with the IS_SPHERE tag and the SUPERNATURAL_LEARNING_POSSIBLE to let these creatures learn the secret and then MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE to generate slabs and allow them to record it and MUNDANE_TEACHING_POSSIBLE so they would pass on the knowledge.  This was in 44.x, presumably it will work in 47.x, and might even work better?  I've been thinking of testing out if the new villainous networking and exchange of secrets as bribes will propagate secrets that originated this way.

Well, unfortunate that immortality is still seemingly the only valid option. As for teaching, yeah. I'd most likely use megabeasts as the teaching method simply because they're already set up in Adventurecraft to offer an interesting variety of spheres. I might also use the various wild NIGHT_CREATURE_HUNTER monsters that Adventurecraft uses to add a tier of monster below SMBs, as many of them were given some freaky properties to make them more interesting to encounter than the mundane critters they're based off of (dire wolves have a touch of ice wolf plus a shadow theme, sanguine dragons are basically vampire cave dragons except their blood is merely poisonious, etc etc). They'd also make for an interesting source thematically.

I think immortality is needed to drive them out of their home civilization. 

Does anyone know if IS_SECRET_GOAL:IMMORTALITY will work even if the secret doesn't actually grant immortality?  I suppose I will try testing this also if no one knows...

You can indeed have a secret simply fail to grant immortality. The problem is, I don't know if MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE and related tokens are adequate to compensate for this. Last time I tested it, libraries were still a new and not-fully-fleshed-out feature, and I found that mortal spellcasters regularly lost the knowledge every time they died, and they also had a bad habit of being unable to store that knowledge in libraries. Back then, it seems they outright needed to build a tower before they could secure their knowledge, and I don't know if that behavior's changed enough to allow things like mortal wizards (or even simply minionless wizards) successfully propagating their teachings.

[Nahere]

If there is a teachable secret granted as a minor blessing, will that result in loads of histfigs learning it and writing books on it?

Minor blessings, so far as I'm aware, are only granted by divination dice, which only player adventurers will use.

[Eric Blank]

They gave several creature the SPHERE alignments and the SUPERNATURAL token, and then made many secrets with the IS_SPHERE tag and the SUPERNATURAL_LEARNING_POSSIBLE to let these creatures learn the secret and then MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE to generate slabs and allow them to record it and MUNDANE_TEACHING_POSSIBLE so they would pass on the knowledge.

Sadly the supernatural learning never actually worked; supernatural creatures never picked up their associated secrets. I assume it's either a bug or it was never fully implemented to begin with.

However, with more secrets, more gods will pass out slabs. even if the secret doesn't have a raise interaction, the slabs will be stored in towns and stuff that now have places where artifacts are stored, so you can find them in mead halls and stuff.

The mundane recording also seems bugged, as it's been a long, long one since I've actually seen a book contianing secrets, even in towers that have existed for hundreds of years.

[Scruiser]

Does it work for unique demons at least?  I thought unique demon's got spells?  Or is it that it makes a slab for the demon but the demon never actually writes any books or teaches any students?  At the very least I hope the new villain network stuff that allows Villains to barter with secrets would work.

If you don't know, I guess I can try modding a bunch of unique demons and then finding one that has a villainous network.

[FantasticDorf]

[RESPONSIBILITY:RELIGION] has a function and a purpose if used with framework of [POSITION:DRUID] for safety, though i havent actually tried it with a custom position yet or a site-position:=> like detailed here. <=

Outside of being used for a natural force, they help maintain the rigidity of the dwarven pantheon, while other pantheons mutally benefit and humans are free to spawn as many religions as they like. Monks seem to be keeping their populations and temples are being filled with holy men so it would seem like their presence is actually a requirement Toady has not met.

I was going to open a issue report but I wanted to play a bit longer and run more tests. So feel free to go ahead.

[Random_Dragon]

Speaking of, I've been testing several, increasingly-insane permutations of religion configs, both with and without the presence of religious nobles to enforce SPIRITUAL PURITY, and in every case so far the civ likes to pick up fucktons of unrelated spheres.

The only conclusion I have been able to come up with so far is that the SPHERE_ALIGNMENT token is absolute broken bullshit and should not be used because it is NOT actually a reliable way to nudge a civilization towards a specific sphere, and does not seem to help no matter what you do.

[Scruiser]

Sadly the supernatural learning never actually worked; supernatural creatures never picked up their associated secrets. I assume it's either a bug or it was never fully implemented to begin with.

However, with more secrets, more gods will pass out slabs. even if the secret doesn't have a raise interaction, the slabs will be stored in towns and stuff that now have places where artifacts are stored, so you can find them in mead halls and stuff.

So from my preliminary testing this all seems to be true in 47.x... however I did have a few historical figures learn secrets directly from slabs, and of 3 worlds I have generated so far, I actually got a book written by one of those historical figures containing a secret.  So secrets introduced this way can spread, it just appears to be very slow/uncommon (I am using a custom mod with 4 secrets taken from spellcrafts and 2 secrets I came up with myself and a few modded unique demons and unique megabeasts to test out which secrets are introduced into the world and which spread).  So I guess spamming loads of custom secrets is the best way to get a few of them actually into the generated world.  It seems like we will have to wait for the Myth and Magic arc to actually get fully moddable magic.

I have a few more things I want to try and test out, but I think I will wait for the Legends Viewer to be updated, legends mode is too much of a pain to browse otherwise.

[Random_Dragon]

Yeah, all in all it seems a tad hard to wrangle.

Tiny contribution: can now confirm NIGHT_CREATURE_HUNTER is a valid token for transformations to ping.

[Slann]

Hello! I have a question about golems. I've been trying to create a mod for personal use for a long time. But nothing clever comes to mind. How do golems work in Masterwork? Can I copy some raw-file, reaction etc for myself, and if so, which ones? If you have any ideas "How to do this" please, answer. Thanks in advance for your reply.

[IndigoFenix]

MUNDANE_RECORDING works in the sense that the secrets can be written down, but only necromancers living in towers will do so.  I have also seen intelligent megabeasts with the SUPERNATURAL and POWER tags acquire a secret that matched their spheres and write books on it (Great Dragons in my mod occasionally write books on the Firebrand Technique), but only if they managed to rise to a leadership position, which is rare.  I have never seen anyone else record a secret book or take on apprentices in worldgen - people who pick up non-necromancy secrets inevitably die with them.

[IndigoFenix]

So from my preliminary testing this all seems to be true in 47.x... however I did have a few historical figures learn secrets directly from slabs, and of 3 worlds I have generated so far, I actually got a book written by one of those historical figures containing a secret.  So secrets introduced this way can spread, it just appears to be very slow/uncommon (I am using a custom mod with 4 secrets taken from spellcrafts and 2 secrets I came up with myself and a few modded unique demons and unique megabeasts to test out which secrets are introduced into the world and which spread).  So I guess spamming loads of custom secrets is the best way to get a few of them actually into the generated world.  It seems like we will have to wait for the Myth and Magic arc to actually get fully moddable magic.

I have a few more things I want to try and test out, but I think I will wait for the Legends Viewer to be updated, legends mode is too much of a pain to browse otherwise.

Hmm...I wonder.  Perhaps it's not so much that they can't record secrets, but rather that in order to record a secret, the person who gets the slab must also be the kind of person who writes books, which is very unlikely.  But then why are necromancers so much more likely to do so?
I wonder...could it be personality-related?  Maybe the kind of person likely to seek immortality is also likely to write books and take apprentices?  What happens if a secret alters the person't personality to make them more likely to write books?

[TomiTapio]

Hmm...I wonder.  Perhaps it's not so much that they can't record secrets, but rather that in order to record a secret, the person who gets the slab must also be the kind of person who writes books, which is very unlikely.

Giving two humanoid species
[NATURAL_SKILL:WRITING:7]
[NATURAL_SKILL:READING:7]
[NATURAL_SKILL:PROSE:7]
[NATURAL_SKILL:POETRY:7]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SPEAKING:7]
lets one have more writers in the world, possibly.

[IndigoFenix]

I was thinking more like a syndrome personality change, although I'm not sure what personality traits to use. Art inclined? Arrogance?

[Scruiser]

Hmm...I wonder.  Perhaps it's not so much that they can't record secrets, but rather that in order to record a secret, the person who gets the slab must also be the kind of person who writes books, which is very unlikely.  But then why are necromancers so much more likely to do so?
I wonder...could it be personality-related?  Maybe the kind of person likely to seek immortality is also likely to write books and take apprentices?  What happens if a secret alters the person't personality to make them more likely to write books?

Here's some screenshots from legends mode about the one case a non-necromancer secret got written in a book: https://imgur.com/a/1qTGEmf (fire warrior was taken from Spellcrafts mod along with a few other test examples).

Your guess about personality may be right.  The author wrote a non-secret book first and also wrote a bunch of books afterwards.  Also, this secret came close to spreading via villain network, but sadly they didn't actually follow through on their promise...

So for modding if we can find the personality traits that drive following through on villainous promises to share secrets and the personality traits to write books that might work... Does worldgen respect personality changes via syndrome interaction?

Edit maybe: ABSTRACT_INCLINED and ART_INCLINED for facets and KNOWLEDGE for beliefs to write books.  GRATITUDE and DUTIFULNESS for facet and LOYALTY for beliefs to encourage sharing via villain interaction