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Author Topic: Formation Orders  (Read 1239 times)

Dragonslayerelf

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Formation Orders
« on: January 20, 2020, 08:08:01 am »

What do I mean? Well, I was recently playing Total War Warhammer II as Karak Azul and I was placing my dwarf warriors in a line, ready to combat some goblins, and then I had a thought occur to me: Wait a second...

So basically, instead of making a station order and saying 'occupy this general area for a bit', you can create a station rectangle where the entire squad stays within that triangle and tries to occupy only one slot at a time, with a toggleable setting that forces them not to chase enemies around and remain in place (they usually come to you anyway). That, paired with being able to give individual orders, would then allow you to make actual formations with your units, like lines of spearmen blockading a passageway with crossbows firing over their shoulders (without them stupidly running off) and maintaining some semblance of actual order. This would not only make battles much cooler in my opinion, considering you dont have Urist McWarrior running off from the rest of his squad and wading into the depths of the enemy force only to be killed by the sheer number of blows causing blunt force trauma to his limbs and instead Urist McWarrior standing solidly by Melbil McWarrior and fighting side by side in a single spot. This album is basically my thought process: https://imgur.com/a/IFWpDgb

While I think the old station command should still exist, it should be more of a move order whereas you have the option to actually position your units in a more concise area for better tactics and, potentially, more !!fun!!, especially considering the updates that are on the horizon concerning raids, pillages, and attacks on other places. Coming up against a row of human pikemen positioned near the gate of a castle might offer some pretty hard deterrence!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 08:09:46 am by Dragonslayerelf »
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Luckyowl

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 05:10:30 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2020, 05:29:41 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.
It's not likely that the formations update will be a "player controlled dwarves only" update. If/when it happens it'd be an overhaul of the whole battle system.
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Luckyowl

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2020, 05:47:19 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.
It's not likely that the formations update will be a "player controlled dwarves only" update. If/when it happens it'd be an overhaul of the whole battle system.

yeah, most likely an overhaul to the battle system. Maybe when you are invaded you enter into some of kind of strategy mode not sure how to flesh it out, but I feel that may be a start?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2020, 06:05:06 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.
It's not likely that the formations update will be a "player controlled dwarves only" update. If/when it happens it'd be an overhaul of the whole battle system.

yeah, most likely an overhaul to the battle system. Maybe when you are invaded you enter into some of kind of strategy mode not sure how to flesh it out, but I feel that may be a start?
I imagine a mostly automated battle with both sides using tactics as the situation requires and depending on the amount and type of training they've been doing (and civ level battle tactics knowledge plus outsider lectures) and maybe some complex if-then manager style orders (hey let's make the military screen even more complex...).

Then with additional input from the player to change things up and do complex stuff mid-battle if they want. Because players will always come up with crazy traps and stuff that the AI probably couldn't cope with.
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Dragonslayerelf

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 08:06:03 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.

Not necessarily. In my opinion, the AI's wild attacks would help considering that they'd just run up against a wall, possibly 3 dwarves wide and 3 ranks deep, and get chokepointed to death, whereas right now your dwarves fight in a equally wild fashion and just run out and get themselves killed.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 08:37:50 pm »

This sounds good, if it wasn't for the AI fighting wildy. if your dwarves were to stand in formation, the AI troops won't follow suit they will just attack randomly increasing the chance for a weaker defense on your part. I do like your ideas but there needs to be change in the AI behavior to have them fight more strategically.

Not necessarily. In my opinion, the AI's wild attacks would help considering that they'd just run up against a wall, possibly 3 dwarves wide and 3 ranks deep, and get chokepointed to death, whereas right now your dwarves fight in a equally wild fashion and just run out and get themselves killed.
Yes, you only have to look at a whole bunch of Roman Vs "barbarian" battles in history to see how successful disciplined formations work beautifully against an enemy whose main strategy is "Charge!!!".

But, yeah, AI will obviously be updated otherwise dwarf Vs dwarf battles would make no sense even if Toady decides goblins should have no battle discipline (not likely).
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jfs

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2023, 03:39:11 pm »

I want to bump this, as some way to order militia squads to do something slightly more detailed than just "go here" really itches me.
It would be much easier to manage battles if your dwarves could use some basic tactics and discipline, such as "hold this position, do not chase", "retreat to this position", and then "mop up and freely give chase". Right now, bloodthirsty dwarves see a target, give chase, kill, see the next target, run over, and before you know they're separated from the group, surrounded by enemies, and over-exerted, having run to their own death. Some basic squad discipline could help this a lot.


Another, older thread, about tactics and stuff too.
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se5a

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2023, 08:55:55 pm »

it's be nice to see discipline affect this sort of stuff.
and maybe different races use different tactics, ie humans tend to use tight formations, dwarfs be maybe a bit of a looser less disciplined formations, goblins just a random group like now, etc. 
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betaking

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2023, 08:07:42 am »

it's be nice to see discipline affect this sort of stuff.
and maybe different races use different tactics, ie humans tend to use tight formations, dwarfs be maybe a bit of a looser less disciplined formations, goblins just a random group like now, etc.


I would prefer it if it was more about civs and the weapons available/used by said civ.

Humans; if they're supposed to be medieval should be forming either shield walls or spear/pike/halbard formations, etc;

"Doctrine", if I'm using that term correctly might be an appropriate thing here; examples: "Archers/Crossbows/Slings as Skirmishers" vs "Mass Formations"; "Horses being used merely as transport to the battlefield vs fighting on horseback"... etc.

making these things un-abstracted creates all sorts of new "stuff to be happening" in a fortress or in adventure mode sites; but that also introduces all new complications; such as the massive amount of training time that horsemanship requires for the horses and the riders. idk if it's even going to be possible to make work in a satisfactory way without other major changes to DF.
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se5a

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Re: Formation Orders
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2023, 03:28:10 pm »

Pretty sure mounts are planned, invaders already use them
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