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Author Topic: *We need your help to save the noobs!*  (Read 104231 times)

pink_belt_dan_52

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #480 on: July 17, 2020, 09:50:25 am »

Having to learn how to assign nobles before you get the tutorial guy seems a bit... off. Should probably just sort of be a thing adjustable in the options somewhere.
Agreed. There may be a slight weird feeling when a Dwarf of the starting seven (presumably the expedition leader) starts giving "you" advice. Because, who are you? Where are you? Who's this dwarf talking to you? And how is he talking to you while he's floundering in a murky pool having been attacked by a log?

But that's easily just hand-waved away. Just don't worry, better to have advice than not, right?  :)

This got me thinking, would it make sense for each of the other essential noble positions to be automatically assigned to a suitable dwarf at embark like the expedition leader is? (Obviously while keeping the control for the player to replace/remove them afterwards.) There could even be an option to mark candidates for particular positions when assigning skills to the starting seven.

I think it would make sense from a story perspective, since you'd expect an expedition party founding a new settlement to have at least some amount of organisation, and it would be one less interface based obstacle for new players. Knowing that, say, the manager is likely already present would probably be helpful for experienced players trying to give tips to people who are asking for help, too.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #481 on: July 17, 2020, 11:49:13 am »

Well, getting a manager immediately means getting someone who insists on getting an office, and who, when getting it, spends a fair amount of time getting the books in order at a time when you may have more pressing needs (yes, if you're experienced you deal wiht that by not giving the bugger an office until you and the fortress is ready for it, but that's not newbie territory). Also, the following migration waves often contain candidates that are more suitable for the jobs than the starting 7. I delay getting an broker until the first caravan shows up, for instance, allowing me to select the best candidate among the migrants available at that time.

I'd definitely prefer some kind of advice/notice board (that could be hidden by those who would be annoyed by it) that would remind me that there are unfilled positions, with associated hints for who are likely to be suitable for the positions as well as how urgent it is to appoint them, than having the positions taken by the starting 7 who really should be focused on getting things done than pushing paper.
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muldrake

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #482 on: July 17, 2020, 12:58:34 pm »

Well, getting a manager immediately means getting someone who insists on getting an office, and who, when getting it, spends a fair amount of time getting the books in order at a time when you may have more pressing needs (yes, if you're experienced you deal wiht that by not giving the bugger an office until you and the fortress is ready for it, but that's not newbie territory).

This actually may be a save the noobs issue because not realizing that you actually seriously, desperately need to be able to know what you have at all times is a fort destroyer.  About the first thing I build is a chair and a table for the bookkeeper.  Even in the early phase where you just have 7 dwarves, just knowing what you have at all times is ridiculously necessary.  I also always have at least two dwarves with the necessary skills upon embark.

Having one of the utterly necessary mechanics of the game completely opaque to new players is probably a noob-killer.  Why shouldn't it be obvious to new players that having a bookkeeper is absolutely necessary?

And let's note also that just to know what you have, you have to access the unique part of the nobles menu where you assign quality to the bookkeeper, something you have to do for literally nobody else.  So you have to access a ridiculously obscure, buried part of the menu just to tell your bookkeeper that yes, you actually want to know what stuff you have.

Everyone who plays the game regularly knows this.  Do noobs?  Probably not.  This is the kind of stuff that turns people off the game, just weird shit like yeah you have to go to this buried menu just to have basic functions in the game.

Then there's the job manager menu.  It's great, you can't run a fort without it.  Oh also you have to go assign shit in the nobles menu for it, again, have a manager, assign a desk and a chair, etc.  They can be the same dwarf but remember, your bookkeeper dwarf is somehow going to take weeks just to count the stuff you already brought that you should already somehow know you brought, but then will magically know everything forever.

But similarly, without the job manager menu and an inventory, you're crippled in this game and nothing tells you how to establish either of these things.  You have to somehow figure them out yourself or read a tutorial or the absolutely excellent Getting Started With Dwarf Fortress.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 01:09:20 pm by muldrake »
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ror6ax

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #483 on: July 17, 2020, 01:35:31 pm »

I'm a noob(playing for less than a year).


Things that made/still make me confused in no particular order(feel free to answer with explanations):
All of these questions are after(!) I read the Getting Started with Dwarf Fortress book.

Fortress mode.

In Baldur's Gate if I choose to be a thief I can't just not steal, shoot arrows a lot and become a ranger. Apparently I can make a mason/engraver dwarf and later decide they will be a warrior. I need this information before embark and I need to know the consequences of my pre-embark design.
Digging stairs. Still don't know why up-down thing is needed.
Took me a number of unhappy re-embarks to realise I need appraisal/bookkeeping/leadership to survive. Nothing suggests that.
Spent half an hour trying to engrave un-smoothed wall, thought it's a bug or I am dumb.
Can every dwarf learn any skill if they try hard enough? Why can't they learn appraisal from zero if they can learn other skills from zero?
Designating a burrow (which sounds like digging activity but is not) makes dwarfs go into it immediately when I thought there's an "activate burrow" option and designating is a preparatory step.
Switches are confusing. Is the text displayed what is now or is it what will be when I turn the switch on?
What does a blinking dwarf in a unit list mean? How do I get this information from a game?
My dwarfs fought something and amazingly still alive. How healthy are they? No idea.
Elf traders don't want wood - how would I know without wiki?
What is the purpose of pre-trading conversation? I read that it does not do anything? Is it a bug?
How would I know I need an anvil, pick and axe to survive? Yes, it's suggested, but those are expensive and I want more chickens and cats.
Map - am I supposed to settle near something? Does proximity mean I get more/less trade or more/less chance of army marching in? No idea still.
Qualities like Critical thinker made me think there's some kind of technology tree exploration thing happening when they are really useless.
Books are expensive but give you nothing. If at least half of the books were "On making mead" and gave a reader dabbling skill it would make more sense to invest in them.
Wood stockpile is 'w', gem stockpile is 'e'. Why? Don't know.
Does smelting pollute air? Don't know.
Why can't I melt snow in the furnace and get water? It makes perfect sense.
I want to encrust specific items without spending 40 years setting up a rube goldberg machine for it.
My hunter goest to hunt whenever he/she pleases and hunts whatever he/she wants. Not consistent with rest of the game in terms of control.
Noble list [REQUIRE] is useless - never would I ever figure out what this means without wiki.
Burrow cancellation spam.
Visiting musicians petition spam (just piss off, I am not feeding any more useless bards).
Nest box spam (no idea what it means).
Thief has been spotted - ok now what?
Circling the nested menus is pure masochism. I have no idea where I am, and I have to be extremely aware of 100500 different keyschemes to navigate a list and open a sublist. Examples - military screen, stockpile material screen. Just use arrows and make a marker of where I am now instead of tiniest possible colour change.
Extract (bag) and extract (vial) - why would I do that? What for?
Simple/good/fine foods - nothing tells me why this matters.
Brewing is the most important mechanic in the game and nothing tells me that even when dwarfs start going off the rails and killing each other.
Once I build bins I loose visibility on what I have and where it is.  I also lose the pleasure of seeing nice shiny objects and instead it's a text somewhere.
Fortress value - why does this matter? What effects does it have?
Room value - what effects does it have?
Kennels have nothing to do with dogs.
All butcher shop actions are useless, I need to use a z->Animals to butcher, train and geld. How would I know what? What does "capture live animal" mean? Why would I? What for?
Traps - will they catch my own dwarves?
Will dogs on a leash die of hunger?
Do trees re-grow?
Why can't I plant trees?
I opened a cavern! Good, it took me a while to understand that I still need to dig a staircase for dwarfs to enter it!
First 10 z levels are just plain rock anyway. How do I issue dig command for all of that instead of 20 stair-down/stair up manual steps?
Absolutely everything about military menu is confusing. Absolutely everything.
Dwarfs are stupid and have a death wish - previous posters elaborated on this. Giving preference to safety especially when there's active combat is something that is implicitly expected. Opposite feels dumb and weird.

Adventure mode.

What can I do?
Where am I?
What do I have?
What am I wearing?
Where is the log of what I just did?
What is my purpose?
Do I need to eat?
Do I need to sleep?
I picked a profession and no battle skills. What do I do now?
Why would I play this?
What did I do to deserve this?




« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 01:48:37 pm by ror6ax »
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ror6ax

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #484 on: July 17, 2020, 01:37:40 pm »

how does one delete a message on this forum
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Putnam

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #485 on: July 17, 2020, 11:16:07 pm »

In Baldur's Gate if I choose to be a thief I can't just not steal, shoot arrows a lot and become a ranger. Apparently I can make a mason/engraver dwarf and later decide they will be a warrior. I need this information before embark and I need to know the consequences of my pre-embark design.

Never considered this, but agree

Digging stairs. Still don't know why up-down thing is needed.

Down stairs connect to up stairs and vice versa, up/down stairs are both, the reason both exist is because up stairs exist in the "wall" area and down exist in the "floor" area. None of this is conveyed well in-game at all, so yes, agreed.

I'm a noob(playing for less than a year).


Things that made/still make me confused in no particular order(feel free to answer with explanations):
All of these questions are after(!) I read the Getting Started with Dwarf Fortress book.

Fortress mode.

Took me a number of unhappy re-embarks to realise I need appraisal/bookkeeping/leadership to survive. Nothing suggests that.
Can every dwarf learn any skill if they try hard enough? Why can't they learn appraisal from zero if they can learn other skills from zero?

I've never touched the leadership skill, so not sure where that's coming from. They can learn appraisal from zero, just open the trade screen once and they'll have appraisal (this is very much not conveyed and should be). Bookkeeping, similarly, can be bypassed a bit by just not making the bookkeeper go on "highest" precision, you can stick with "high" for years. And, again: this is not conveyed, and should be.

What does a blinking dwarf in a unit list mean? How do I get this information from a game?

The dwarf has a legendary skill. That's actually all there is to it. This one is conveyed in-game, cause most blinking dwarves have titles like "master carpenter" or similar.

My dwarfs fought something and amazingly still alive. How healthy are they? No idea.

v->w for wounds and z->health if you have a chief medical dwarf both tell you this, but this isn't exactly told to you.

Fortress value - why does this matter? What effects does it have?
Room value - what effects does it have?

Fortress value affects how willing other civilizations are to invade you and how likely megabeasts are to go after you and how likely you are to get nobles appointed. Room value increases happiness from sleeping in rooms. The former's never said in-game but the latter kinda is, quite a lot, when you look at dwarven thoughts.

delphonso

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #486 on: July 18, 2020, 06:26:33 am »

how does one delete a message on this forum

No pure delete. Just edit the message and fill it with [deleted] or [oops, double post], etc.

muldrake

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #487 on: July 18, 2020, 10:24:01 am »

Can every dwarf learn any skill if they try hard enough? Why can't they learn appraisal from zero if they can learn other skills from zero?

They can.  Just pick a dwarf and assign them to be the broker.  Send them to the Trade Depot by choosing the "trade" option and once they get there and you interact with the menu in any way, they get that skill.  So if you start out without one you'll need to wait until a caravan shows up.  You can do this trick to get another dwarf the skill if you already have a skilled appraiser by simply temporarily appointing them as broker, sending them to the depot, then unassigning them and putting the usual dwarf back.

Quote
What is the purpose of pre-trading conversation? I read that it does not do anything? Is it a bug?

It means you have friendly diplomatic relations with the civilization and one of their diplomats is talking to your own leader.  That's why some nobles need offices, and that's where these meetings happen.  So make sure the nobles who need offices have them and they're actually accessible.  People often just ignore these negotiations and don't do anything with them but they're more useful than you may think.  They both ask you to have things they want when they come back, and they offer a better price, or you can request specific things next time they come back, too.

Often their export requests are just dumb and useless and can and should be ignored, they either demand things you're going to keep for yourself or that are so worthless you'd never bother making them.  But sometimes they'll want things like shields or bucklers or some kind of weapon you already make a lot of and then you can just churn out a bunch of these things, keep the masterworks for yourself, and sell off the junk, and get a nice price boost for it.

My main requests in the phase where they ask what you want are usually cheap things like unusual ores, but that are ridiculously rare.  Cassiterite, bismuthinite, nickel ores, things like that.  They're cheap, but you often luck into a map where you don't have any of them, and I really like bronze and bismuth bronze.  Later in the game when I'm flush with cash I like buying raw aluminum, rose gold (because it is annoying to smelt bars from other bars), and any of the components of steel if I'm in a map that doesn't have much of it, or I've already gone through my reserves.

The import/export interaction is obscure and it should be more obvious that it's actually useful.

Quote
How would I know I need an anvil, pick and axe to survive?

You don't.  And it doesn't tell you, although all of these are in the basic embark and you have to deselect them intentionally to end up without them.  Also you don't actually need the pick and axe if you bring the material you can make them with.  The only strictly necessary item is the anvil, and you can still get lucky and get one in your first trading caravan, if you somehow survive long enough.  I think the anvil is the unique game item that can only be created if you already have an anvil.  Presumably Armok created the primordial anvil from which all others came, because it is apparently impossible to create an anvil ex nihilo.

Quote
Map - am I supposed to settle near something? Does proximity mean I get more/less trade or more/less chance of army marching in? No idea still.

In short, yes.  All those guys in the embark menu are the ones who will end up trading with you, attacking you, whatever.  Pay attention to those.  If you aren't a fan of the undead do not embark near a necromancer's tower for instance.  For the first year or so I played I didn't even know you could tab in this menu to look at other aspects of the embark because everything else had kept me so busy.

IMO things like this are the noob killers, or could have been for me, things where some mechanic is actually very important but you could literally be completely unaware of its existence while getting completely thrashed, game after game, because you didn't even know it was there.

Quote
Qualities like Critical thinker made me think there's some kind of technology tree exploration thing happening when they are really useless.
Books are expensive but give you nothing. If at least half of the books were "On making mead" and gave a reader dabbling skill it would make more sense to invest in them.

They're getting semi-useful.  Also books/slabs can have at least one useful property, they can concern "secrets of life and death" and a dwarf reading them can turn into a necromancer.

Quote
Does smelting pollute air? Don't know.

It does nothing.  But apparently there is some stress impact from workshops in general and the noise they make, although I have never seen anything in-game that would let you know this or not to just put your living quarters next to a bunch of workshops.  But don't do that, although there's absolutely nothing in-game that lets you know that's a bad idea.  But so far as I know there is no penalty for disgusting things like fish chop shops and butcher's workshops or whatever other than the miasma.

Quote
I want to encrust specific items without spending 40 years setting up a rube goldberg machine for it.

Encrusting is terrible and the ridiculous stockpile mechanics you have to go through, combined with the absolute inability to be specific about it, really needs fixed.  I don't think noobs are really dying from not being able to craft absurdly valuable items mainly to boost the value of royal living quarters, but we really should be able to do this fairly simple thing.

Almost all of your suggestions are really things that desperately need to be fixed, though.  They're not particularly complex mechanics, they wouldn't be that hard to understand, but the interface buries them under often several layers of obscurity.

As long as I'm even talking about encrusting, though, here's how to do it semi-usefully.  Wait until you have Legendaries in whatever you want encrusted as well as the gem-related skills.  You can skill them up by working them, having one emigrate to you, or a fortunate strange mood.  Build a workshop for the Legendary and restrict it so only he can work there.  Don't let it take general orders.

Attach a stockpile to it that only takes items from that one workshop.  Assign it to feed the workshop that will actually encrust the gems on it.

Individually assign orders for what you want encrusted.

Similarly, have a jeweler's workshop that is restricted to your preferred jeweler.  Also give it a stockpile.  You can do another jeweler's workshop to take from that stockpile if for some reason you want the cutter and encruster to be separate dwarves, or for workflow efficiency.

And again, make it refuse general orders and only give it the specific orders for gems you want the specific items to have.

Finally, months later, you can actually produce specific items of furniture (or whatever) and then encrust them with the specific gems you want, after those specific gems have been cut.  Finally, you can have that royal bedroom with just a couple items instead of just randomly packing it full of junk for months until it hits the arbitrary royal value, or desperately piling artifact upon artifact in it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:33:28 am by muldrake »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #488 on: July 18, 2020, 11:34:17 am »

Quote
But apparently there is some stress impact from workshops in general and the noise they make
This hasn't been the case since DF went 3D dozen years ago.

Quote
Well, getting a manager immediately means getting someone who insists on getting an office
Regarding this, it's actually alredy bit noob-friendly: Below 20 dwarves, work orders are automatically validated, with no need for office.

Quote
Do trees re-grow?
This one is not necessarily obvious. There's sapling tiles (τ), and after enough time they'll grow up to be full trees. "enough time" is 3 years from spawning, which means that after clear-cutting newbie will probably not see new trees grow before their fortress falls.

Quote
Simple/good/fine foods - nothing tells me why this matters.
There probably should be some indicator that, say, eggs are only edible cooked (or less obviously, same issue for yams or syrup). If you have an appraiser, broker indicates that their valua, so there's that.

Quote
First 10 z levels are just plain rock anyway. How do I issue dig command for all of that instead of 20 stair-down/stair up manual steps?
Designations can cross z-levels, but I guess this is also not obvious. Maybe a border around the area one is designating?

PatrikLundell

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #489 on: July 18, 2020, 05:57:49 pm »

:
Quote
First 10 z levels are just plain rock anyway. How do I issue dig command for all of that instead of 20 stair-down/stair up manual steps?
Designations can cross z-levels, but I guess this is also not obvious. Maybe a border around the area one is designating?
And you don't designate up and down separately:
- Designate Down stair at the starting (top level)
- Designating Up/down stairs starting at the level below the Down stair, go down to the end level to end the designation
- Change the designation type to Up stair and overwrite the lowermost Up/Down staircase with it (you can also end the previous designation one level above, but you still have to designate the Up stair, so it's probably less work to overwrite the designation).
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Uthimienure

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #490 on: July 18, 2020, 07:15:55 pm »

The in-game macro recording & use is actually very easy.  Finding out that macros exist was not as easy for me, lol.
This can save lots of tedium when designating mining of stairwell patterns, common room shapes, etc.

From the wiki page:  http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Macros_and_keymaps

The controls for creating macros within DF are as follows:

Ctrl+r = record (and finish recording)
Ctrl+s = save
Ctrl+l = load
Ctrl+u+number = set to repeat [number] of times (maximum of 99)
Ctrl+p = play

Macros work with all kinds of other things too!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 07:17:29 pm by Uthimienure »
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ror6ax

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #491 on: July 19, 2020, 03:49:15 pm »

Thanks for the answers, everyone!

One more thing I've thought of is the ability to visualize what blocks a given order from being active.

Let's say I have a clothier and I've put in an order to make some bags. I have the materials.
For whatever reason my clothier decides it's high time to pasture some goats or haul some stone.
I can force him to do a task now, but it would be really useful to somehow see the priority list - aka how in the hell a skilled clothier prioritizes animal care that is not even enabled for him.
This could be a bug in job assignment/dwarftherapist that I use or both at the same time but still a interesting UX challenge for the devs IMO.
The game with no way to directly tell dwarfs to "go here" and "do this" like, say, Starcraft has to provide means to alleviate frustration of your dwarfs not doing what you want.
I've just realised that my example sucks - tasks like trade in the depot or the military things would benefit the most from such a feature - neither has a "do now" option that jobs in workshops allow for.
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Moeteru

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #492 on: July 19, 2020, 04:52:32 pm »

Even as a very experienced player I still find myself occasionally getting confused as to why my dwarves aren't doing a particular job. Usually it's just because I set a maximum skill limit in the workshop profile.
It would be a very nice usability feature if the game gave some kind of warning that you need to change some settings in order for the job to be completed. Even if it was just a red exclamation mark next to the job without any further information it would be a big improvement.
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muldrake

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #493 on: July 20, 2020, 07:16:46 am »

Frankly, this sort of opinion can only be had if you close your ears and shout "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU EVERYTHING'S FINE".

I'm not going to belabor this but on reevaluating my original response to this post and the one you were replying to, you were right I was being a flippant jerk and I'll try to be better.  I try to behave better on this fairly high quality forum.  It was not my intention to usurp a thread that is really for noobs or to tell them what they're experiencing.  Sorry.
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Putnam

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #494 on: July 21, 2020, 07:13:04 pm »

Even as a very experienced player I still find myself occasionally getting confused as to why my dwarves aren't doing a particular job. Usually it's just because I set a maximum skill limit in the workshop profile.
It would be a very nice usability feature if the game gave some kind of warning that you need to change some settings in order for the job to be completed. Even if it was just a red exclamation mark next to the job without any further information it would be a big improvement.

The "j" menu could really use a reason that jobs are inactive, even one as simple as "no eligible dwarves found".
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