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Author Topic: *We need your help to save the noobs!*  (Read 102741 times)

DG

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #195 on: December 29, 2019, 07:52:02 am »

will infiltrators be disablable?  Visitors aren't
They are, but you need to edit a text file.

data/init/d_init

Code: [Select]
You can set the maximum number of visitors to your fort here.  This does not include merchants, diplomats, animals or invaders, but only those either dropping by for a temporary visit to a tavern, library or temple, or those seeking permanent employment.  Once you accept a petition from a visitor to stay at your fort, they no longer count against the cap, even if they never become a full citizen.

[VISITOR_CAP:10]
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Oab

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #196 on: December 29, 2019, 03:47:39 pm »

New players need direction more than anything. Tutorials are a good idea on paper, but I don’t think a tutorial is the solution for a game as complex as this. As others have mentioned in this thread most will probably skip hours of tutorials anyway. This to me just seems like a massive waste of development time.

The wiki and tutorial videos are great, but not to many people will want to spend hours there either.

I think the major issues to address are the Complexity, and the FPS issues.

Complexity/Interface/Tutorial:

Problem: Too much information without an easy way of comprehending it all can be overwhelming to the player and will make them give up before the 2 hour steam refund policy.
Solution/s: Organize the information via simple and intuitive categories with modern expectations in mind. Utlize popular UI design philosophies to achieve this.

1.   Hovering over and item name or category should provide a simple tool tip pop up.  Each object should display enough information to the player including what is can be used for when viewed via tool tip. This will give the player an idea of what they can do with all the Magnetite they just dug up for example.

Magnetite:
Can be smelted into iron at a smelter.

2.   Break the menus up into categories and sub-categories with enough information to explain the purpose of the menu. Everything in the game should have a tool tip including menus. The goal here should be to keep it clean and easy to look at with simple to understand categories. Color coding is a quick visual indicator of what that objects purpose/category is. This should be done with the font and/or backgrounds if icons are planned.

Example:
Buildings > Workshops (Tooltip: Workshops allow dwarfs to produce items) > Butcher’s shop (Tooltip: The Butcher’s shop is used to extract components from animals and creatures.)

Viewing the Butcher’s shop:
A Workshop used extract components from animals and creatures.
Requires profession Butcher.
Butchers can extract Meat, organs, Fat, Skulls, Bones, Hooves, horns teeth, Shells, Skin, Wool, Hair, Cartilage, Nervous tissue, Feather, chitin, scale, and nail from animals and creatures.

3.   Clicking on the object name should lead to a built in encyclopedia available via the help menu explaining the more detailed uses and purpose of that object.

4.   View Rooms/Buildings should also indicate what rooms and buildings can be built and what furnishings they require to be considered a specific room.

5.   It would be helpful if dwarfs needs from their thoughts and preferences occasionally appeared as a thought bubbles over their sprites. This would be a good way of telling the player what they should provide for that particular dwarf without the need to navigate in game menus for each and every dwarf. Additionally adding in a sub menu for needs may be a good idea and would do wonders to help balance the stress system. This provides goals for the player as well, which is another potential problem players may feel is missing.

Example:
Prayer hand icon over the dwarf would indicate a need for prayer. The player will then set a goal for themselves to dig out an area to build a temple to the god that particular dwarf worships.

FPS death:
Problem: Every item in the game is tracked constantly; the more items on the map the more fps will drop. Path finding jobs in big sprawling forts cause FPS to drop due to longer routes requiring more calculations.
This will definitely provoke many negative reviews on steam as this sort of thing isn’t tolerated by the average steam user.

Solution/s:
1.   Add in an easy way to destroy items for good and better consolidate items for index tracking purposes.
    a.   Things like clothing, food, corpses, etc. should completely decay than disintegrate after a short amount of time if left outside of storage.
    b.   New buildings: Pyre, Compost pile, and Magma Incinerator.

Pyre: Converts organic items into ash. Have a menu with which objects should be incinerated. Things like tattered clothing, enemy corpses and rotten food could be on by default.

Compost pile: Rotten vegetation could be defaulted to here. This could serve as an alternative option of irrigating tiles to make them muddy. Much like designating a farm plot the player could designate an area to be fertilized via compost. This would make those tiles fertile for planting purposes.

 
Magma incinerator: Permanently destroys items. This would replace the atom smasher with a logical replacement.

c.   The manager system should be paired with the stockpile screen in a way that allows the player to better control and understand how many goods they need rather than just mass producing items at a corresponding workshop.  The manager screen should be the default way to manage production for new players. This would help reduce the overwhelming designation menu design and insane micromanagement need for those who don't love that type of game play.

2.   Break up hauling to be a profession/s rather than a shared job that every dwarf does.  This will limit longer distance path finding jobs to fewer dwarves.

a.   Hauler: Hauls items to and from stockpiles.

b.   Miner: Hauls stone and ore via mine carts/wheel barrels to stockpiles.

c.   Workshops only pull from their stockpiles by default and haulers will provide a limited number of resources to the workshop directly if no stockpile is linked. This will prevent crafter dwarfs from performing path finding jobs for materials and will also keep them safe within the confines of the fort so you only need risk your peasants for such tasks.  :D

3.   Have cleaning be a primary profession to help keep clutter down. Cleaners would utilize the magma incinerator, compost pile, and pyre. I notice this task is usually ignored due to how dwarfs prioritize tasks. For less organized forts this adds to FPS death.

4.   Migration waves should be smaller in size and even frequency by default. This would have an added benefit of getting to know individual dwarfs better and focusing on investing in them more.

5.   Map size smaller by default.

Difficulty concerns:

Difficulty should be determined via multiple parameters and a peaceful mode should be made for new players that will avoid things like sieges, were-beasts, and forgotten beasts.

Other than that I think good modding and tile set support being established is important. Even if its not used in the scope of the vanilla steam release. I may be biased about this, but I think it would do wonders to add to the lifespan of the game, especially considering the long release cycle droughts.
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anewaname

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #197 on: December 29, 2019, 10:22:46 pm »

All of the population threshold events are too dangerous for most new players. They are all potential fort-killers that require significant preparation to prevent (yes, a gate attached to a lever requires significant preparation for a new player).

So, my suggestion is a "play as a novice?" toggle. While the toggle is active in fort mode, all of the dangerous population trigger events could be preceded by an opportunity to accept help to "chase away the menace". A messenger would arrive and deliver an offer of assistance to deal with some menace, and then leave. If the player accepted the offer, the menace will not arrive at the fort at this time. No other effects

Examples:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There could be many variations and future demands for "got some spare food and booze for us heroes?", but the base structure is intended to make novices aware of the danger and allow temporary protection, without adding training wheels everywhere else in the game.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #198 on: December 30, 2019, 12:14:17 am »

Please consider really carefully.
Even a casual browse of the forums here and at Reddit reveals:

1) Beginners revelling in discovering that Losing is Fun and laughing with others over all the gory details, making friends at the forum at the same time.

2) Beginner's posting irate, "where the hell are the goblins" comments in frustration at the lack of danger in their fortresses.

There's room for improvement but "Let's make Dwarf Fortress easy, that way people will come to love it" is a pretty misguided approach at best.
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Inarius

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #199 on: December 30, 2019, 04:15:46 am »

I agree with Shonai Dweller.
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Ghills

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #200 on: December 30, 2019, 08:38:54 am »

will infiltrators be disablable?  Visitors aren't
They are, but you need to edit a text file.

data/init/d_init

Code: [Select]
You can set the maximum number of visitors to your fort here.  This does not include merchants, diplomats, animals or invaders, but only those either dropping by for a temporary visit to a tavern, library or temple, or those seeking permanent employment.  Once you accept a petition from a visitor to stay at your fort, they no longer count against the cap, even if they never become a full citizen.

[VISITOR_CAP:10]

Thank you! I thought I looked in the raws, guess I just missed it.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, though.  A veteran player didn't know that a feature was configurable because they missed something looking through monotonous text files.  DF needs to communicate that these options are there at the very least, and hopefully have an Options menu.
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
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Ghills

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #201 on: December 30, 2019, 08:41:28 am »

Please consider really carefully.
Even a casual browse of the forums here and at Reddit reveals:

1) Beginners revelling in discovering that Losing is Fun and laughing with others over all the gory details, making friends at the forum at the same time.

2) Beginner's posting irate, "where the hell are the goblins" comments in frustration at the lack of danger in their fortresses.

There's room for improvement but "Let's make Dwarf Fortress easy, that way people will come to love it" is a pretty misguided approach at best.

Dude, no one is saying DF should be neutered.  Quite a few people are saying that DF should communicate important information to players, let players choose which parts of the game they want to interact with, and stop boxing people into one specific playstyle to handle badly balanced game mechanics (ex, stress system). 

I've seen this same false dichotomy come up over and over.  It's nonsense.  A good UI doesn't make a game easy, it makes a game fun.
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I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE
Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #202 on: December 30, 2019, 10:09:44 am »

Please consider really carefully.
Even a casual browse of the forums here and at Reddit reveals:

1) Beginners revelling in discovering that Losing is Fun and laughing with others over all the gory details, making friends at the forum at the same time.

2) Beginner's posting irate, "where the hell are the goblins" comments in frustration at the lack of danger in their fortresses.

There's room for improvement but "Let's make Dwarf Fortress easy, that way people will come to love it" is a pretty misguided approach at best.

Dude, no one is saying DF should be neutered.  Quite a few people are saying that DF should communicate important information to players, let players choose which parts of the game they want to interact with, and stop boxing people into one specific playstyle to handle badly balanced game mechanics (ex, stress system). 

I've seen this same false dichotomy come up over and over.  It's nonsense.  A good UI doesn't make a game easy, it makes a game fun.
I was talking about the post right above me which said the game was too hard for new players and needed an "easy mode". I was saying there's no evidence for that at all (even doubtful about Threetoe's initial assumption that werebeasts at pop 20 is too hard). Most new players embrace the Losing is Fun motto. Many complain about the lack of actual threat.

UI obviously needs improvement. That's where new people have the difficulty. Agree with most everything in the thread so far.
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therahedwig

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #203 on: December 30, 2019, 10:35:53 am »

Well, I guess the tricky bit about the werebeast at pop 20 is that it requires players to understand how to manage the position of their dwarves, how to identify infections, which might be a bit advanced at that stage of the game. Simpler threats like kobold thiefs, goblin snatchers, just general named beasts that don't have curses associated but can still wreck an ill-trained militia(and I suposse low-tier villains?), or just the problem of dehydration in the winter(at which point due the extreme amount of immigrants you already have 30 dwarves at least) might be a better challenge.

(As well, while the pop-minima are protection, they're in my experience also enforcement, it's a bit odd that the 20-40 or so werebeasts from worldgen are able to find your fort no matter where it is. It's fun to lose your first fort to a werebeast curse infecting everyone, and maybe your second, but not your third, fourth, fifth, sixth. Especially if, for whatever reason learning how to handle the curse just takes a long while. So even a variation in the types of threats might already be a boon.)

Hopefully the army arc will beef up the goblins enough. I don't really know what is going on, because I never had trouble getting tons of invasions, to the point I turned off invaders at one point because it was getting exhausting and wanted to do something else (I had invasions of something or the other every single season, maybe I just picked out a really swell spot).
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anewaname

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #204 on: December 30, 2019, 03:53:47 pm »

@Shonai_Dweller

I see your point about taking what I posted as an "easy mode".

About that discussion about 20 population being too low for were-creatures... The talk of changing thresholds to help new players is the same as adding difficulty levels or balancing into DF, and it seems wrong. Thresholds have always seemed to represent what it takes for the AI opponent to think the fort should be attacked. And these threats should not be based on what the player is ready for.

The 43.nn(??) bug that caused goblins to only attack from the nearest site, leaving players with too few antagonists, and the tantrum spirals caused by the 44.nn stress-accumulation bug, and the pre-40.nn tantrum spirals, plus the occasional FPS bugs. These bugs caused player upsets because the player's new opponent was something they couldn't fight and often couldn't evaluate or assess.

My intent wasn't to suggest an "easy mode", but a "coward mode", where players who feel they are still fighting with their learning and their dwarfs, can read a message about "a vile beast" or "30 incoming goblins" and make the choice to avoid them, and so the player sets their own difficulty mode while they are learning. But I suppose that doesn't belong in the game any more than thresholds adjusted for estimated player experience.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Pvt. Pirate

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #205 on: December 30, 2019, 04:25:49 pm »

Please make that werebeast trigger adjustable. If there's nothing to attack you besides a fleeing kobold and an irate hippo in the early part of the game it's gonna get boring quickly.

Now, pushing the game to make previous fortress inhabitants visit new player fortresses over every other site in the world is really killing the game. And it's not just an immersion issue.

Oh, succumbed to werebeast Fun, ha ha. New fortress on the other side of the world, migrant wave appears full of the werebeasts from the last place. No more games in this world then. Rage quit. Same for the chronically depressed.
what about a goblin/kobold scout team of max 10 members when your fort reaches 20 instead of a trapavoid, building destroyer, biteinfecting werebeast?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #206 on: December 30, 2019, 05:49:30 pm »

@Shonai_Dweller

I see your point about taking what I posted as an "easy mode".

About that discussion about 20 population being too low for were-creatures... The talk of changing thresholds to help new players is the same as adding difficulty levels or balancing into DF, and it seems wrong. Thresholds have always seemed to represent what it takes for the AI opponent to think the fort should be attacked. And these threats should not be based on what the player is ready for.

The 43.nn(??) bug that caused goblins to only attack from the nearest site, leaving players with too few antagonists, and the tantrum spirals caused by the 44.nn stress-accumulation bug, and the pre-40.nn tantrum spirals, plus the occasional FPS bugs. These bugs caused player upsets because the player's new opponent was something they couldn't fight and often couldn't evaluate or assess.

My intent wasn't to suggest an "easy mode", but a "coward mode", where players who feel they are still fighting with their learning and their dwarfs, can read a message about "a vile beast" or "30 incoming goblins" and make the choice to avoid them, and so the player sets their own difficulty mode while they are learning. But I suppose that doesn't belong in the game any more than thresholds adjusted for estimated player experience.
Well, sliders to turn off death altogether and let people focus on building stuff is already part of Mythgen plans, could be brought forwards easily enough I guess. Just don't like this focus on "new players require less adversaries". We face adversaries, work out how to defeat them, and get better at the game. Dwarf Fortress would be quite unique amongst Roguelikes (I know it isn't really one, but still) to start from a not at all challenging point.

Werebeasts...well, maybe 20 is a bit too Fun. Please don't nerf zombies though.

Again, it's really the information that's the problem. On the embark screen how about "rumours of werebeasts in the vicinity".
So people build accordingly (or learn next time to build accordingly when they get that warning).
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FantasticDorf

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #207 on: January 02, 2020, 05:46:20 am »

Again, it's really the information that's the problem. On the embark screen how about "rumours of werebeasts in the vicinity".
So people build accordingly (or learn next time to build accordingly when they get that warning).

Wasn't really described or elaborated, but site patrols made by your squads in the viscinity sparsely mentioned by Toady and old development goals could also fill this prior information warning (when appropriate, werebeasts and most nightcreatures do operate under stealth and moonlight as far as adventure mode is concerned) as well as greater scope of information that can be interrogated or eiked out of people.

There's still plenty of potential to have it expanded. One of the army arc tangental ideas was to have a interceptor force against threats and other armies leap in to help in a realised fight on site or otherwise. But that's reasonably still very vague until we see what is in store for us.
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Vyro

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #208 on: January 02, 2020, 09:07:50 am »

It'll be a bit of a tangent, but here's my two cents. Disclaimer: I only play Fort mode and still consider it the main mode of the game.

So, we're trying to appeal to newbs here, a fair point. The most glaring issues like werebeasts and bugs are already addressed, from what I see. Well, mine is not so much of an issue but a suggestion. See, DF is a sandbox type of game, the one generally enjoyed by people of a pretty specific mindset (the type that can derive hours of fun from banging two pebbles together, provided those pebbles are of amusing shapes and colours). Naturally I happen to be of this particular persuasion. This does not, however, describe your average Steam gamer. What I mean is, people are used to having a specific goal in their game: kill the head terrorist, defeat Alduin, usurp the First Flame, be the first at the finish line, make America great again by sleeping though cutscenes... You know, that kind of thing. Obviously it doesn't apply to sandbox games, and that's why those are so niche. DF is the kind of game where you set your own objectives and have fun (!FUN!) achieving them, which seems... unviable for most people.

What I'm proposing here is to bend the genre a bit and offer the player "starting missions" of some kind, the ones that more or less describe why this particular dorf fort is sitting in this particular spot. A Military outpost, a Trading hub, an Industrial complex, a Breadbasket, you get the drift. Realistically speaking, medieval people never settled in the ass end of nowhere without a damn good reason. It was always to secure something, be it arable land (the boring one), natural resources like mines and timber of all colours, commercial route nodes for free income, even strategic advantage against a nearby enemy. Sadly, most of those depend on having a functional economy system instead of the placeholder DF currently employs, but that's wishful thinking at this point, it should work as is.

Specifics wise, "missions" are mostly symbolic, they are not there to reward (optional), merely to head a clueless player in the right direction. Each one should be packed with a customised embark profile, a slight RAWs adjustment like reducing invader frequency and power for noncombat-oriented ventures, and a vague guideline like "military needs metal weapons and training or YOU ALL DIE". Ideally it would also include an actual mission criteria like "having three full squads with full metal equipment and Competent level of combat-related skills", as well as some congratulatory pat on the back once said criteria is fulfilled, after which it's your sandbox all over again. Or maybe implement criteria as tiers to draw out the gimmick even more. Either way, it produces that (slightly shallow) feeling of accomplishment, which is all most people want.

Now, I do realise a successful dorf fort never specialises - it simply does great is all areas there are, unless you specifically go for a challenge and shoot yourself in the foot on purpose. But First, it's kinda wrong (and unrealistic) to not be able to specialise in a meaningful way, and Second, the whole "mission" shebang is for the new players who don't have the skills yet to manage a full scale operation and entertain themselves in the ensuing chaos ("the goblins are banging on the gates again, the booze just ran out, someone's pet water buffalo fell down the well, a dozen forgotten boogaloos are stomping though the caverns, the bedrooms are nowhere near finished so everyone is pissed, a gaggle of elven poets went berserk in the tavern, our major just drained our only weaponsmith, and that possessed farmer whom everybody loves DEMANDS SHELLS RIGHT NOW").
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #209 on: January 02, 2020, 09:40:55 am »

...snip...

Pretty much exactly that is planned already for the releases following the magic release (which will be after the steam one)  :)

Starting scenarios
Various possiblities that guide or govern fortress activity: frontier settlement, religious site, prison colony, mining company, military citadel, roadside inn, secondary/future palace of the monarch
Drastic changes to migrants based on starting scenario
Caravans/diplomatic relationships based on starting scenario
Reclaim mechanics should be folded into this
Generalize starting scenario relationships to every site foundation

Not sure I have much else to add myself to the topic, seems most bases have been covered as far as I can think of. Seconding that the migrant wave size and frequency need a tuning for early forts at least, or some new init options (max migrant wave size).
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