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[Schmaven]

I agree with the inevitability of stress being a big problem.  I don't want to take away from that being a real issue.  But a temporary work around I've found is to just let some dwarven darwinism run its course.  Provided you have enough fresh migrants, eventually you will be left with just happy dwarves, totally unphased by corpse hauling and rain.  It does take a good bit of luck in the character traits you get, but just keep the migrants coming.  I don't particularly like this work around, and it can be difficult to employ if you embarked in a very hostile part of the world (hostile to migrant waves anyway).

I also think there is some untapped research potential with how the long term memory system affects stress levels.  There may be a small window, early in the arrival of each dwarf, where one could engineer memorable experiences of 1 kind or another.

[uebersoldat]

Long time lurker and player here. I don't run my forts like prisons and am well versed at going out of my way to meet needs etc and at the same time have a certain, amusing level of !FUN!. That said, I've stopped playing altogether last year sometime because of the stress issue. I'm getting the urge to play again but I'm very disheartened to see that not much has been done on that and we may not see any fixes before the Steam release, mentioned by TOne in a recent FotF.

If you're reading, I'd say overall please make Dwarves more Dwarf-like when coding the little folks' personalities and tendencies. I mean this in a general fantasy sense. As it stands now, it's just embarrassing that so many members of the mighty Dwarven race get so upset over seeing a dead corpse or slaying an enemy or being in snow. I feel like I'm managing baby elves more than Dwarves with all this depression and sadness over menial things like rain or seeing a dead gobbo.

Don't get me wrong, there should always be these types of Dwarves out there to make things interesting but it's become overwhelming and unmanageable in my last few forts.

Is there a way to simply alter the largest offenders like stress from seeing corpses and being in the rain or snow? Those few things there would make things immediately playable to me. Perhaps a RAW can be edited in the short term?

In closing, I like the comment on the first page about old timers like me playing and enjoying a city builder moreso that a Dwarven emotional manager, so spot on there. I'm in that group I reckon.

Thank you for all your hard work, looking forward to future releases!

[muldrake]

If you're reading, I'd say overall please make Dwarves more Dwarf-like when coding the little folks' personalities and tendencies. I mean this in a general fantasy sense. As it stands now, it's just embarrassing that so many members of the mighty Dwarven race get so upset over seeing a dead corpse or slaying an enemy or being in snow. I feel like I'm managing baby elves more than Dwarves with all this depression and sadness over menial things like rain or seeing a dead gobbo.

This is especially irritating when they get upset about seeing a dead gobbo or elf or whatever that they actually enjoyed killing.  What the hell is that?  They should get a positive for that.  "Yep, that filthy gobbo is still dead!"  It's especially annoying when they're constantly horrified by dead bodies or body parts or whatever yet adamantly refuse to just haul them off to the dump.

[madpathmoth]

If you're reading, I'd say overall please make Dwarves more Dwarf-like when coding the little folks' personalities and tendencies. I mean this in a general fantasy sense. As it stands now, it's just embarrassing that so many members of the mighty Dwarven race get so upset over seeing a dead corpse or slaying an enemy or being in snow. I feel like I'm managing baby elves more than Dwarves with all this depression and sadness over menial things like rain or seeing a dead gobbo.

This is especially irritating when they get upset about seeing a dead gobbo or elf or whatever that they actually enjoyed killing.  What the hell is that?  They should get a positive for that.  "Yep, that filthy gobbo is still dead!"  It's especially annoying when they're constantly horrified by dead bodies or body parts or whatever yet adamantly refuse to just haul them off to the dump.

The fact that none of the dwarves are like that at all bothers me.  If most dwarves were just against the violent killing of anything sentient, and only a few did enjoy seeing their murderous, child-stealing, demon-lead enemies burn and die, that'd make sense but still not feel like dwarves in basically any other fantasy setting or story.  As-is dwarves have no sense of victory, at all, while being incredibly sensitive (literally "will never recover and slowly descend towards suicide") to just boring, illogical things.

How EVERY character in this game can't emotionally handle combat is so annoying.  Especially in Adventurer Mode, where just nothing works well, it's annoying that context NEVER matters.  Oh, how true, it's terribly traumatic for a dwarf to end the life of something trying to kill him--  What's that?  This is a master warrior killing the jungle titan that eliminated his family and threatened his people for decades?  Cause for celebration, what's that?  All I see is a lone dwarf crying because he got an ouchie, shaken to the core by the death of this innocent, brutal killing machine.  Time for him to return home, less of a person, achievements and victory be damned.  It feels like you're sitting at a table to play D&D with a pissed-off, manic-depressive GM who refuses to listen to you and just physically slaps whatever you're holding from your hands every time you imply there should be any levity or characters who desire this life...  Same deal in fortress mode.  It's like there's this oppressive assumption-- more like a decree, really-- that anything that could be negative should be, and anything that could be positive only is if there's no justification for it not to be.

This is a design philosophy problem.  It's not about being more or less realistic.  So far SO MUCH of what's been focused on is purely negative for the dwarves, while positive stimuli and events have received considerably less detail.  But even then, it's still up to Three-Toe and The Toady One how much dwarves are impacted by any given thing.  The fact that getting rained is anything but the most impermanent penalty is ridiculous, let alone that it's comparable mechanically to a dwarf giving birth to her first child.  Frankly?  It's kinda stupid.  It shouldn't be a surprise that dwarves just inevitably get depressed and die when the overwhelming amount of available stimuli in the game is negative and prioritized, what else would you expect?  It's like filling a playpen full of thumbtacks then tossing a couple babies with in with a toy or two and being like "I'm surprised how often the babies step on or interact with the tacks, huhhhhh...  But they have other options!"

[muldrake]

The fact that getting rained is anything but the most impermanent penalty is ridiculous, let alone that it's comparable mechanically to a dwarf giving birth to her first child.  Frankly?  It's kinda stupid.  It shouldn't be a surprise that dwarves just inevitably get depressed and die when the overwhelming amount of available stimuli in the game is negative and prioritized, what else would you expect?  It's like filling a playpen full of thumbtacks then tossing a couple babies with in with a toy or two and being like "I'm surprised how often the babies step on or interact with the tacks, huhhhhh...  But they have other options!"

It's super annoying when a dwarf spirals off into insanity not just because of being rained on, but literally going insane because of REMEMBERING being rained on over and over.  Wtf?  This is absolute bullshit.  Maybe if it was being rained on with elf vomit in a terrrifying biome but wtf?  Just rain?  How are dwarves such weak pussies?

[Shonai_Dweller]

The fact that getting rained is anything but the most impermanent penalty is ridiculous, let alone that it's comparable mechanically to a dwarf giving birth to her first child.  Frankly?  It's kinda stupid.  It shouldn't be a surprise that dwarves just inevitably get depressed and die when the overwhelming amount of available stimuli in the game is negative and prioritized, what else would you expect?  It's like filling a playpen full of thumbtacks then tossing a couple babies with in with a toy or two and being like "I'm surprised how often the babies step on or interact with the tacks, huhhhhh...  But they have other options!"

It's super annoying when a dwarf spirals off into insanity not just because of being rained on, but literally going insane because of REMEMBERING being rained on over and over.  Wtf?  This is absolute bullshit.  Maybe if it was being rained on with elf vomit in a terrrifying biome but wtf?  Just rain?  How are dwarves such weak pussies?

Because...stress system has bugs. It's a simulation. Toady didn't deliberately program dwarves to constantly remember rain just to annoy you.

[muldrake]

Because...stress system has bugs. It's a simulation. Toady didn't deliberately program dwarves to constantly remember rain just to annoy you.

And this is the thread for discussing such bugs.  Dwarves being inordinately upset (and continuing to be traumatized by such insignificant events) is one such bug.  I do not believe I ever claimed Toady put this in the game as some kind of persecution of me personally.  That would be an incredibly weird claim.

[Egan_BW]

It would certainly be more dwarfy if they went insane at the sight of the gaping, infinite sky than at the minor detail that said horrifying expanse sometimes drips.
I've always seen it like the dwarves, who mostly live in the first cavern layer, are just as frightened by the strange and deadly world of the surface as we humans would be by the caverns, with flora and fauna which is, to us, completely alien.

[Splint]

If you're reading, I'd say overall please make Dwarves more Dwarf-like when coding the little folks' personalities and tendencies. I mean this in a general fantasy sense. As it stands now, it's just embarrassing that so many members of the mighty Dwarven race get so upset over seeing a dead corpse or slaying an enemy or being in snow. I feel like I'm managing baby elves more than Dwarves with all this depression and sadness over menial things like rain or seeing a dead gobbo.

This is especially irritating when they get upset about seeing a dead gobbo or elf or whatever that they actually enjoyed killing.  What the hell is that?  They should get a positive for that.  "Yep, that filthy gobbo is still dead!"  It's especially annoying when they're constantly horrified by dead bodies or body parts or whatever yet adamantly refuse to just haul them off to the dump.

How EVERY character in this game can't emotionally handle combat is so annoying.  Especially in Adventurer Mode, where just nothing works well, it's annoying that context NEVER matters.  Oh, how true, it's terribly traumatic for a dwarf to end the life of something trying to kill him--  What's that?  This is a master warrior killing the jungle titan that eliminated his family and threatened his people for decades?  Cause for celebration, what's that?  All I see is a lone dwarf crying because he got an ouchie, shaken to the core by the death of this innocent, brutal killing machine. 

Actually most sapients don't have any issue with the overwhelming majority of semi/megabeasts dying cause they're just dumb animals as far as they're concerned. The trauma comes from being in combat to start with (usually being alarmed or shaken over being attacked or injured, and getting slapped with one seemingly hard-hitting Vengeful thought for every sapient ally in the fight) and some personalities legit don't feel any concern or fear about it, or even respond positively to armed conflict.

However, those personalities are few and far between, and personality changes seem to err on the side of being bad at present, causing the opposite extreme to gradually become commonplace in many players' forts over time, leading to an ever increasing stress burden caused by a mixture of unmet needs (before anyone harps on me for mentioning that, they still contribute even if it's negligible,) and personality changes causing those bad thoughts to linger and/or affect the dwarf or other citizen more severely.

Plus, those few who do get good or neutral thoughts from conflict tend to have it cancelled out by that Vengeful thought deluge if nothing else. Seriously, I've seen a dwarf go from above average mood to super stressed over vultures fighting with one other dwarf just because they and 12 others happened to be in the immediate vicinity and not even taking part ("joining an existing conflict" my ass, Urist, you were still pushing your wheelbarrow along like it was business as usual while your neighbor's kid beat large birds to death on the roof of your house.)

The fact that none of the dwarves are like that at all bothers me.  If most dwarves were just against the violent killing of anything sentient, and only a few did enjoy seeing their murderous, child-stealing, demon-lead enemies burn and die, that'd make sense but still not feel like dwarves in basically any other fantasy setting or story.  As-is dwarves have no sense of victory, at all, while being incredibly sensitive (literally "will never recover and slowly descend towards suicide") to just boring, illogical things.

[snipped bit above]

Time for him to return home, less of a person, achievements and victory be damned.  It feels like you're sitting at a table with a pissed-off, manic-depressive GM who refuses to listen to you and just physically slaps whatever you're holding from your hands every time you imply there should be any levity or characters who desire this life...  Same deal in fortress mode.  It's like there's this oppressive assumption-- more like a decree, really-- that anything that could be negative should be, and anything that could be positive only is if there's no justification for it not to be.

It's super annoying when a dwarf spirals off into insanity not just because of being rained on, but literally going insane because of REMEMBERING being rained on over and over.  Wtf?  This is absolute bullshit.  Maybe if it was being rained on with elf vomit in a terrrifying biome but wtf?  Just rain?  How are dwarves such weak pussies?

It's been discussed to death, but a very common complaint is like this; that dwarves with the way things are often don't really feel like dwarves as the average person would imagine them.

While on the one hand that's subjectively good cause it makes them stand out a bit, I would assume most people coming in are expecting something more akin to "traditional" fantasy dwarves since the game is marketed as a fantasy world simulator, if only as a baseline to work from: gruff, hardy people with souls and psychology made of solid iron able to weather the horrible worlds dwarves near universally live in where they are beset from above and below by enemies.

Will some crack? Yes! Of course a minority will. Not all iron is made equal after all, and sometimes accumulated rust is too much for that iron to bear or too much is piled on it at once and the iron buckles and breaks. But in most fantasy stories the dwarf's body will gives out and they'll croak long before their mental state implodes.

And as we all know, DF worlds left at default settings are godless fuckin' nightmares as it is, full of necromancers, vampires, goblins, belligerent humans and/or elves, and only the gods know what else.

Sure, a great deal of this can be ameliorated by modding currently, it runs the risk of making things too easy or boring (since the simplest way to get rid of 90% of the worst stimuli is to not settle evil biomes and turn off invaders and weather) and modding isn't going to be an obvious solution to newer players or long-time ones that dislike tampering with the vanilla files.

It would certainly be more dwarfy if they went insane at the sight of the gaping, infinite sky than at the minor detail that said horrifying expanse sometimes drips.
I've always seen it like the dwarves, who mostly live in the first cavern layer, are just as frightened by the strange and deadly world of the surface as we humans would be by the caverns, with flora and fauna which is, to us, completely alien.

Problem there it's clearly not alien to them. To the dwarves who live super deep underground, maybe, in the deep hold sites which I don't think are actually in yet? But Urist the Average Joe Hillock Dweller  and even the average fortress resident probably wouldn't find the surface world all that strange, seeing as they have open access to it and receive regular visits from its denizens.

[Egan_BW]

Cavern-level dwarf sites have been in since 2014 iirc? And I get the impression that that's where the majority of dwarf population is supposed to be, as opposed to hillocks and fortresses. Hillocks are essentially small surface towns, fortresses are small but well-defended gateways between the surface world and the caverns, and deep sites are the dwarven equivalent to cities.
But then, dwarves have dogs and cows and such as normal livestock. I treat what I said before as just a neat headcanon to explain dwarves being "disturbed by nature" and annoyed by rain. (At least in the older versions, dwarves who minded the rain less were stated to "not mind working outside" or such, marking them as being different from most dwarves in that they don't dislike the outdoors.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

Because...stress system has bugs. It's a simulation. Toady didn't deliberately program dwarves to constantly remember rain just to annoy you.

And this is the thread for discussing such bugs.  Dwarves being inordinately upset (and continuing to be traumatized by such insignificant events) is one such bug.  I do not believe I ever claimed Toady put this in the game as some kind of persecution of me personally.  That would be an incredibly weird claim.

Ok then. Yes confirmed bug. 30 pages ago and on the tracker. What was your discussion point? Seemed like you were just venting annoyance at bugs.

[Salmeuk]

I'm honestly surprised people are still posting in this thread. Every salient point that could be made has already been made, and while it's up to you how you use your time, it is doubtful that Toady / Threetoe are still reading this thread thirty pages later. Hold no illusion you are talking directly to them, and perhaps direct your energy towards more useful aims like updating the wiki or playing community fortresses.
 
Here's a tip for playing DF - play WITH the game, not against it. Avoid clutching to your ideal image of a fantasy simulator, and accept that DF is currently unfinished and unbalanced. Stress killing your dwarves? Enjoy the difficulty while it lasts. Unfair bug dictating your playstyle? Well, at least you're forced outside your comfort zone. And imagine how good it will feel to finally see that bug fixed!

If you find yourself jaded towards the development, take a looooooooooong break from the game. A year or two down the road a craving will develop, as well as a newfound curiosity, "I wonder what's changed in the interim?". New mechanics will inspire your creativity, and the cycle will begin anew.

[Splint]

Cavern-level dwarf sites have been in since 2014 iirc? And I get the impression that that's where the majority of dwarf population is supposed to be, as opposed to hillocks and fortresses. Hillocks are essentially small surface towns, fortresses are small but well-defended gateways between the surface world and the caverns, and deep sites are the dwarven equivalent to cities.

My bad, poor word choice on my part. What I meant is I don't think we can visit these sites yet, they're like how goblin sites used be - they're there on the map and whatnot, but if you tried to find them in adventure mode you'd just be sanding in the middle of nowhere with nothing interesting around (man that was a depressing event the last time I played 31.25 adventure mode, cause I was all kinds of hyped to go beat goblins to death with my overloaded coin bag.) They're basically an intangible element of the game like goblin sites once were, there on paper but not in practice. That being said, I just did a quick look on the wiki and while not it's not infallible, it may just be that I'm extremely unobservant or mistook them for parts of the fortresses they were connected to.

At face value though, I would imagine until a fort has a tunnel network connection to facilitate safe(ish) travel, it wouldn't be deep-site dwarves coming to our forts but rather fortress and hill dwarves who are already used to or at least familiar with the hazards of the surface and looking for new opportunities and/or a change of scenery. They're already used to being on the surface, they already know what to expect, and would thus probably be more likely to survive the trip in the first place, so they should by all accounts be made of much sterner stuff than what we seem to typically get.

[Ziusudra]

Cavern-level dwarf sites have been in since 2014 iirc? And I get the impression that that's where the majority of dwarf population is supposed to be, as opposed to hillocks and fortresses. Hillocks are essentially small surface towns, fortresses are small but well-defended gateways between the surface world and the caverns, and deep sites are the dwarven equivalent to cities.

My bad, poor word choice on my part. What I meant is I don't think we can visit these sites yet, they're like how goblin sites used be - they're there on the map and whatnot, but if you tried to find them in adventure mode you'd just be sanding in the middle of nowhere with nothing interesting around (man that was a depressing event the last time I played 31.25 adventure mode, cause I was all kinds of hyped to go beat goblins to death with my overloaded coin bag.) They're basically an intangible element of the game like goblin sites once were, there on paper but not in practice. That being said, I just did a quick look on the wiki and while not it's not infallible, it may just be that I'm extremely unobservant or mistook them for parts of the fortresses they were connected to.

Are you talking about mountain halls? They are there but can only be accessed from the tunnels. They can be easy to miss as the entrance is just a single downstair in the tunnel floor. (Assuming they always spawn that entrance correctly.)

[Splint]

Cavern-level dwarf sites have been in since 2014 iirc? And I get the impression that that's where the majority of dwarf population is supposed to be, as opposed to hillocks and fortresses. Hillocks are essentially small surface towns, fortresses are small but well-defended gateways between the surface world and the caverns, and deep sites are the dwarven equivalent to cities.

My bad, poor word choice on my part. What I meant is I don't think we can visit these sites yet, they're like how goblin sites used be - they're there on the map and whatnot, but if you tried to find them in adventure mode you'd just be sanding in the middle of nowhere with nothing interesting around (man that was a depressing event the last time I played 31.25 adventure mode, cause I was all kinds of hyped to go beat goblins to death with my overloaded coin bag.) They're basically an intangible element of the game like goblin sites once were, there on paper but not in practice. That being said, I just did a quick look on the wiki and while not it's not infallible, it may just be that I'm extremely unobservant or mistook them for parts of the fortresses they were connected to.

Are you talking about mountain halls? They are there but can only be accessed from the tunnels. They can be easy to miss as the entrance is just a single downstair in the tunnel floor. (Assuming they always spawn that entrance correctly.)

Yeah, in relation to anyone who might not like to be on the surface, and thus would logically be more affected by the stuff out there. Until we can build connections to those tunnels, I don't really think most deep dwarves would want to chance some far flung community (as most non-reclaim forts tend to be in player hands,) but prefer at most to move to a fortress or maybe a hillock until they adjust to surface life.

And I figured I was just unobservant. I'm usually more concerned about animals trying to jump me than looking for stairs when I'm underground.