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[Naturegirl1999]

I learned that questions are important, that they have to be chosen carefully, and that not posting for extended periods of time is suspicious. Still unsure about the types of questions to ask though

[hector13]

I learned that questions are important, that they have to be chosen carefully, and that not posting for extended periods of time is suspicious. Still unsure about the types of questions to ask though

Well, broadly speaking you’re trying to figure out - as town, anyway - whether the other people in the game are on your side. Scum want you to think they’re on your side, but will stab you in the back given half a chance of getting away with it. You need to know how to tell the difference.

Open-ended questions will generally net you the best answers in order to do this, as the more someone talks about themselves, the game, and other players, the more information you have to find inconsistencies to press them about.

[dolores]

I don’t know what questions to ask.

You've played a game before. You've got questions in this thread. You've got my commentary on questions in this thread. You were walked through this in VTM. It's within your power to figure out which questions to ask. Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.). If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
If you can't justify to me why you should be in the game I'm going to lynch you by default since anyone who can will be able to use you as a shield for their poor behaviors if this carries on.

dolores
Your focus (beyond me) early on seems to be on the two players I expect will be easiest to mislynch in this game. Why start there?

Gotta mislynch them sometime. Sooner is better than later, eh?
Also they're here. Unless you mean Pooka as the second one, in which case it's because I feel like pooka is the type of person you can bully until they hate you but still get to vote for scum.
The biggest reason though is that I don't want to have to reread their posts. If your apparent alignment flipflops fifty times over the course of the game it'll be okay because at least there will be context to try and construct a theory about why.
I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.

I learned that questions are important, that they have to be chosen carefully, and that not posting for extended periods of time is suspicious. Still unsure about the types of questions to ask though

Basically, there are things you want to find out (if you're not scum) so that you can make sure the right people get voted for. Find those things out. You've got the metagame advantage that it's entrenched practice to ask questions so you can just lynch people if they don't answer you when you ask them what you want to find out.

How come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much? PPE: ninja'd by dolores. Should I just let you speak for me in future?

Yes, but you should ask the question yourself as well so that when I try to push lynches I've got twice as many unanswered questions to quote in giant spoilers.

Naturegirl1999: Did you learn anything in the last game? If so, what, and how do you expect it to help you in this one?

Oh shit I didn't realise NG was answering this question.
Naturegirl1999
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer about what people are likely to do in certain situations with roles etc.
hector13
I realized while writing this (and reading your post) that I don't have any intention of following up with people who might pileup behind me on TricMagic, which is probably likely to happen. I hope you can excuse my infidelity
ppe's are for nerds, hector doesn't have anything interesting to say

[Questorhank]

Questorhank assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of perso nto try to softclaim cop on D1?

Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.

Questorhank: I think you're going to be awful. What do you say about that?

There's a (not insignificant) chance that I do do terribly. Hopefully I can help the town at least a little before my rather inevitable demise.

Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestly

So, dolores, are you scum?

[dolores]

So, dolores, are you scum?

I already fullclaimed, please pay attention to what people have already said before you ask them questions.
As cute as this is and as much as I approve of doing this sort of thing, you aren't exempt from needing to do work in the thread. I'm the player who's put out the most content so far. Unless you expect to drive something forward on me specifically right now I'd suggest you've probably done less to get information from other players in the game than you perhaps should have.

Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.

It's a common perspective for new players to have. I dunno why it keeps cropping up though. Allow me to demonstrate the problem with thinking like this
Questorhank
are you a vanilla townie?

[hector13]

Questorhank assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of perso nto try to softclaim cop on D1?

Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.

Questorhank: I think you're going to be awful. What do you say about that?

There's a (not insignificant) chance that I do do terribly. Hopefully I can help the town at least a little before my rather inevitable demise.

Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestly

So, dolores, are you scum?

Yeah that wasn’t the greatest on my part. Ah well.

I’m all for ironic echoes, but is that it? What makes you so certain you’re going to be killed at some point? Do you expect to be lynched or night-killed?

You also gave something of a non-answer for dolores’ question. Don’t claim unless you’re about to get lynched, but it probably won’t matter even if you do.

How would you go about avoiding this situation, as a power role?


There’s a handful of red flags in dolores’ most recent post I’d like to bring up. Or rather, see other people bring up. PPE: second most recent, but if we want to continue the passive-aggressive thing I’ve got going on vis a vis dolores, there’s some more in the most recent one too.

I guess since she’s a current focus and is in need of something to do, I’d like to see that from:

Naturegirl

And I’ll follow up on them never.

I mean, later.

[Naturegirl1999]

TricMageIf you were Jailkeeper, who would you jail tonight and why?

[Questorhank]

I already fullclaimed
Questorhank
are you a vanilla townie?

I actually did notice, and specifically made note of it, and then forgot immediately. Unvote

Yes. Although that doesn't gain any information, as denying it would be very scummy, and suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill. In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia narrow down who has a power role (although to confirm it would at least keep them from chancing across one during the night).

What makes you so certain you’re going to be killed at some point? Do you expect to be lynched or night-killed?

It's certainly possible that I get lynched, as there's no way for my play style to confirm my being town, since there's no other data for comparison. The cop could do it, but it isn't always in the town's interest to out the cop to save a townie.
As for night-kill, it could very possibly happen to either as a distraction or if I'm becoming a threat. And no matter what, the longer the game goes on, the higher my odds of dying become.

You also gave something of a non-answer for dolores’ question. Don’t claim unless you’re about to get lynched, but it probably won’t matter even if you do.

How would you go about avoiding this situation, as a power role?

I would probably try to avoid suspicion in the first place, but that doesn't really help because that's what everyone else is trying to do too. And now that I think about it, claiming to avoid a lynch isn't as deadly as I initially thought, as the jailkeep could keep the claimee safe (although doing this for extended periods is basically just having another townie).

[Questorhank]

Questorhank
are you a vanilla townie?

The more I think about this the more of a trap it seems.

[dolores]

I actually did notice, and specifically made note of it, and then forgot immediately. Unvote

So you don't find that suspicious, and you're happy to sit with no vote or leads in RVS?
I hate to have to be the one breaking it to you, but fullclaiming during RVS is questionable at best.
You don't even know my meta so you don't know what role I claimed.
What's with this lukewarm nonconfrontational response?

Yes. Although that doesn't gain any information, as denying it would be very scummy, and suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill. In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia narrow down who has a power role (although to confirm it would at least keep them from chancing across one during the night).

I just heard something I can't let slide!
A townie is going to get night killed. That's what happens at night. If you're not a power role, it's in your interest, all else being equal, to be the one getting night killed. This protects the powerroles. This helps you, the town, to win.

Yes. Although that doesn't gain any information

You're not allowed to say things like this if you don't expect to be able to dig your way out of the hole.
The answer to the question 'are you a vanilla townie?' is 'Why are you rolefishing?'. You can go for 300IQ 4D chess moves where you pretend to make a mistake and slip something which isn't true or just clutter up the thread to wifom scum, but to do that you also have to be able to talk the town out of gunning you down for antitown behavior.

The more I think about this the more of a trap it seems.

Gee, you think?

I would probably try to avoid suspicion in the first place, but that doesn't really help because that's what everyone else is trying to do too. And now that I think about it, claiming to avoid a lynch isn't as deadly as I initially thought, as the jailkeep could keep the claimee safe (although doing this for extended periods is basically just having another townie).

Or, y'know, people could not believe your claim. Because you haven't softclaimed beforehand, so there's no establishing causality to make you any more or less likely to be the cop than anyone else.
This is independent of whether or not people think you're scum.

[Superdorf]

Not voting: IcyTea31, IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegirl1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic

hector13: dolores (1)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)

Day One ends on 2019-10-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.

[IcyTea31]

IcyTea31 assuming you're scum, would it be wise to anticipate that you'll intentionally disrupt the flow of the game so that it stalls and dies from a lack of activity, a la bullying webadict into chucking a hissy?

I find that holding grudges makes it difficult to assess people rationally. However, since you asked: it wouldn't be wise to anticipate that, and you should already know why.

Also, in case it wasn't clear, Cop should reveal once they've found Mafia in this game. There are no special gimmicks after all.

If you were the cop, and a townie you knew innocent was one vote away from being lynched, what would you do?

2. IcyTea31: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?

I'll start with everyone at once and see who catches my eye.

IcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?

When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.

How come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much?

I'm not surprised. We're practically married at this point.

I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.

If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?

But you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer

Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.

suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill.

Do you believe that you being alive is more valuable to the town than the cop being alive? In my opinion, it's a good move for VT's to draw mafia attention to themselves, and thus away from the cop.

In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia

Then why did you agree to claim? Wouldn't the optimal move have been to dodge the question?

there's no way for my play style to confirm my being town

That's a bold statement to make.

Note: I typed the above before scrolling down to see dolores already sprung the trap...without following it up? Still, please come up with some sort of answers to the above questions.


Naturegirl1999: Which player do you think is the greatest threat to you? Why haven't you engaged with them more?
Pooka: For scumhunting, do you prefer logical methods such as action analysis, or social methods such as pressuring?
kingawsume: If we were scum together, what questions would publicly you ask of me on D1?
IonMatrix: How excited are you about this game? Why is it different from any other game?
hector13: How would you respond if I said I've got a scum gut read on you?

[dolores]

I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.

If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?

I can't really answer that, since my purpose is most definetly not to see what sort of content they make. I'm open to the possibility of dictating specific types of content to them to have something specific to make commentary on. If they continue to fail to show an interest in the alignments of other players, their lack of engagement and lack of production would suggest that this interest is indeed lacked and the player is, at best, scum, and possibly more likely not ever going to actually engage with the game.
I've made it clear that merely waiting for me to spoonfeed them ideas for work to do isn't going to be enough to keep up.

Hey IcyTea, what the fuck is this:

But you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer

Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.

As much as I appreciate the fact that you think that I'd use some sort of covert NLP mindrape stenography to con players into becoming easy lynches, all of the most suspicious parts of that post are there to acknowledge and thereby help me later defend the fact that I'm basically openly powerwolfing as (ostensibly) a town player.
That said, I'll contaminate all my data as early and as deeply as I want. Dolores flavored data is easy to digest if you're a dolores. If NG decides to use my methodologies (and likely fail to achieve their goal in doing so) they're probably going to give away their intentions/motive to, at the least, the doll in the room.

Note: I typed the above before scrolling down to see dolores already sprung the trap...without following it up? Still, please come up with some sort of answers to the above questions.

Of course I didn't follow up. I might want to lynch Questor in the future. I've already got the part of the trap that makes them look suspicious intact and preserved. I don't need to push forward with it right now because I don't need to blow my load early and create some artificial pressure to try and squeeze more content out for us to pick apart for crumbs of ill intent. QH needs to put out something productive on their own in order to keep up with the basic standards needed to not draw suspicion. You don't get to accuse me of artificially distorting the types of content that weaker players are producing and then complain that I'm not dictating the terms by which a newer player I have no meta information on should attempt to shift suspicion away from theirself, ICT.

While I'm here I may as well rate your answer to my RVS question, so that other players can understand what's going through my head:

IcyTea31 assuming you're scum, would it be wise to anticipate that you'll intentionally disrupt the flow of the game so that it stalls and dies from a lack of activity, a la bullying webadict into chucking a hissy?

I find that holding grudges makes it difficult to assess people rationally. However, since you asked: it wouldn't be wise to anticipate that, and you should already know why.

As divisive and petty as this way of putting it out is (I think your making wuba cry was hilarious, if a bit audacious given the ill health of the forum), your answer is both technically sound (I'm so confident in anticipating a certain type of scum game that I reference a discreet example in my opening post) and sensible (you're aware of this and wouldn't make such an obviously unambiguous play). 8/10, minus one point for presentation.
I don't need to follow up on this question because it's been closed fairly robustly. I don't need to replace my RVS finger on the tea because I've got an ongoing dialogue with them to produce content through.

[Pooka]

Went missing for one day (didn't really check the internet outside of Discord and Telegram), forgot the game was supposed to start yesterday, and this is what I get. A WALL OF TEXT- anyhow, allow me to suffer.

@Pooka
Why haven’t you posted yet?

See above.

@Pooka
Do you think mass claims are something that should be done early, mid game, or late game? Why?

Depends on the game itself. For this one, I'd say Day 3. Assuming no serial killers or vigilantes in play (potential roles list say nothing about them), and assuming all lynches and kills go through and target Town, we'd be 7 by Day 2 and 5 by Day 3. Day 3 should be it then; unless the scumteam is 3 players, then we'll have no Day 3 at all; it is very likely the scumteam we're looking for is a two-man team.

Given that there are no trackers and watchers, we'll probably have less perfect nights than last game.

One more thing though that struck me just now. I think your question about mass claims is very interesting, given that in the last game, you and NJW2000 (the scumteam) did not prepare at all for mass claims.

Pooka: Strategy for Day 1?

I'd personally be wary of dolores. I have the feeling he's power wolfing and setting up the day to work in his favor. But it is just as plausible that he's a quite aggressive Town, and that would be great to confirm. But as for practical strategy, no claiming on Day 1 please. Better not even leave hints of a power role if you're one. The scum should be kept in the dark.

Pooka: What did you learn about the site meta on B12 in the last game that will help you narrow down your reads list in this one?

Not much. Time is stopped on weekends which I can't wrap my head around, the lynching means there is less of a need to rush for the hammer on the deadline, that sort of immediately obvious mechanical stuff. The fact that RVS begins with questions asked to everyone also gives me actual content to respond to and so I feel more invested in the game; I'd like to export some of these things to GOG Mafia at the soonest possible chance. Other than that, there's player meta:
- IonMatrix: Not much, was lynched on D1 for inactivity so I had no chance to learn how he works.
- Naturegirl1999: Her being mafia last game along with NJW who both weren't prepared for mass claims made me see her question in this game about them to be interesting.

Pooka: For scumhunting, do you prefer logical methods such as action analysis, or social methods such as pressuring?

Depends on the circumstances, but given mechanical evidence such as night actions, I'd go for the logical. Social is good too, but you have to know what you're going for and to anticipate the reaction you'll get.

----
That's about it for now.

[Naturegirl1999]

I’m thinking Delores, according to other players, he might be power wolfing, which I looked up and learned that it means when scum try to turn the game in their favor, however he could also be an aggressive town member. As for why I haven’t engaged as much, I’ve been looking at other players’ questions to get a feel for the kinds of questions to ask
Delores Aren’t you worried about lynching town?
Pooka I asked about mass claims because it would be good for the town not to mass claim too early, lest scum receive targets