Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Just wood with some tweak (blessed, runed, poisoned, etc)

0 (0%)

A special bone-made metal-like material

0 (0%)

Fancy glass

0 (0%)

A special native elven metal

0 (0%)

Standard vanilla metal, obtained in some magical/alchemical/hippie way

0 (0%)

Rough gems

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: October 30, 2019, 02:06:51 pm

[LargeSnail]

Hello DF community.

I'm developing an Elven Mod, with the main goal of making the elves not just a playable race but a enjoyable one with lots of original stuff and new mechanics.

Spoiler: Feature List (click to show/hide)

*Play as the elves!
*Control immortal, proud magical elves who must protect the nature (or, more specifically, the trees) at any cost.
*Manage the environment with spellsongs and drudism.
*Betrayal the wildlife and summon war spirits from killed beasts.
*Brew magical potions from local plants.
*Eat your enemies!

Pros of the elves:
   They can't die from old age.
   They don't need alcohol to work, and can brew tea from plants to get minor buffs on their day-to-day work.
   They get high quantities of wood every year. Feather wood on spring, highwood on summer, mallorn wood on autumn and pine wood on winter.
   The wildlife will not hurt you... unless you attack first (but maybe that's what you're looking for).
   They can call titans to their side. They're expensive as hell, but will make your playthrough a lot more easy.
   They can trade with fairies and call beautiful sprites/calm brownies/violent redcaps/mischievous spriggans to their side.
   !!!MAGIC!!!

Contras of the elves:
   Elves dislike commerce; no caravans nor trade depot are allowed in the forest. You only way to obtain items that aren't available on your map is through fairies' shops and from invaders.
   Elves are very weak, and have poor healthcare.
   Weak native weapons and armor.
   Elves can't mine.
   Cave adaptation can drive them crazy.
   Being in war against almost any other civilized race is very common.

Current Progress (Updated to 7/6/2020):

Grown wooden items using Shaping Trees: Done. The wood will change with the season
Replace various vanilla industries with more fitting elven ones: Done
Remove engineering and machines from the game: Done
Druidism: Almost Done
Spellsongs: Done
Travel to the underground without mining: Done
Elven-only pets: Done
Fairy-related stuff: Partially Done
Penalties for killing animals: Done
Better nobility: Done
Having titans as pets: Done
Adding magic to the elves without making it too OP: In progress
Grow rooms and structures instead of building them: In progress
Having local trees turned into treants when you're being invaded by the elves: In progress
Seasonal Seelie/Unseelie Courts: Done

If you've some ideas about new pets, industries, weapons, or whatever you think elves actually need, you're welcome to share them

[brolol.404]

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

[DerMeister]

Idea for druides http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173966.0

Second idea - using druide skill for making grown wood armor, weapons and crafts. Workshop will be designed as growing tree in vanilla forest retreat, but possibly smaller.

Penalties from killing animals may be realized by invisible gas, that add synrome only to elves. But I think this may work strange and you need find another way.

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Dfhack can grow tree manually by using special workshop.

[DerMeister]

My opinion - spellsongs, golden glass and fairy dragons isn't for dwarf fortress. Treants - possibly, but a lot kinds of magic is incongruous if add them to dwarf fortress.

[LargeSnail]

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Using the plant plugin, I can allow the player to grow the local trees. That's a good idea indeed.

Wild animals as visitors should be posible, using the Nature Shrine to call a wildbeast and giving it the status of a resident or a mercenary (so you can add it to your military without being able to assing any job). It should work in theory.

Idea for druides http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173966.0

Second idea - using druide skill for making grown wood armor, weapons and crafts. Workshop will be designed as growing tree in vanilla forest retreat, but possibly smaller.

Penalties from killing animals may be realized by invisible gas, that add synrome only to elves. But I think this may work strange and you need find another way.

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Dfhack can grow tree manually by using special workshop.

The idea of a druid that turns their enemies into trees looks strange to me; imagine being playing as a goblin adventurer, traveling through an elven retreat and suddenly dying 'cause a random druid attacked you with his magic. In a very, VERY old version of Dwarf Fortress, elves carried a druid ^{(or more)} with their army, and he was capable of turn your local trees into treants.

I already added the Grower's Garden, that uses the MAGIC_NATURE skill to grow free wooden items but those reactions can only be done in Spring (and will be canceled in any other season). A growing tree like the ones in the vanilla elven forests would be impossible to mod in.

I was thinking in using DFhack to track the death of any animal in the map, and if the killer was one of your elves then he or she would be marked as "hostile against wildlife" and thus being incapable of gaining the MAGIC_NATURE skill anymore.

My opinion - spellsongs, golden glass and fairy dragons isn't for dwarf fortress. Treants - possibly, but a lot kinds of magic is incongruous if add them to dwarf fortress.

While I'm not a fan of magic mods for DF -because they usually destroys the Legends Mode or only works with the dwarves of the player (and the magic is never applied in worldgen)- playing as the elves without magical stuff looks weird to me. In vanilla DF, they actually are a bit magical; animals never attacks them, trees are shaped at their will and grows the items they need to live, and are immortal.
I just want to give them a little of magic and spells so they're not like standard dwarves, but also not like warlocks. Since I don't like the idea of elves engaging trade (because they dislike it, and being able to turn upset the traders of your own civ looks weird), giving them the capability of protect themselves using spellsongs and druidism isn't unfair.

The idea of Golden Glass come to me after realizing that, without metals or gems, the elves would be forced to use only weak wooden weapons or (if you're lucky to find a volcano or a downward passage that gives you access to a magma pool) petrified versions of the same items. I was thinking in using amber as a weapon-grade material, but vanilla amber isn't pretty better than wood.
Another idea that could be great is adding a fake amber material that replaces the true amber in the reactions to forge weapons and armor, giving greater stats to the products than actual amber.

Treants will be simple: you produce treantish seeds using regular seeds and magic, plant them and wait until a treant sapling grows, then collect the plant and with a reaction you summon a child treant. The reactions to make the seeds and turning the sapling into an actual creature would not be cheap.

[DerMeister]

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Using the plant plugin, I can allow the player to grow the local trees. That's a good idea indeed.

Wild animals as visitors should be posible, using the Nature Shrine to call a wildbeast and giving it the status of a resident or a mercenary (so you can add it to your military without being able to assing any job). It should work in theory.

Idea for druides http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173966.0

Second idea - using druide skill for making grown wood armor, weapons and crafts. Workshop will be designed as growing tree in vanilla forest retreat, but possibly smaller.

Penalties from killing animals may be realized by invisible gas, that add synrome only to elves. But I think this may work strange and you need find another way.

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Dfhack can grow tree manually by using special workshop.

The idea of a druid that turns their enemies into trees looks strange to me; imagine being playing as a goblin adventurer, traveling through an elven retreat and suddenly dying 'cause a random druid attacked you with his magic. In a very, VERY old version of Dwarf Fortress, elves carried a druid ^{(or more)} with their army, and he was capable of turn your local trees into treants.

I already added the Grower's Garden, that uses the MAGIC_NATURE skill to grow free wooden items but those reactions can only be done in Spring (and will be canceled in any other season). A growing tree like the ones in the vanilla elven forests would be impossible to mod in.

I was thinking in using DFhack to track the death of any animal in the map, and if the killer was one of your elves then he or she would be marked as "hostile against wildlife" and thus being incapable of gaining the MAGIC_NATURE skill anymore.

My opinion - spellsongs, golden glass and fairy dragons isn't for dwarf fortress. Treants - possibly, but a lot kinds of magic is incongruous if add them to dwarf fortress.

While I'm not a fan of magic mods for DF -because they usually destroys the Legends Mode or only works with the dwarves of the player (and the magic is never applied in worldgen)- playing as the elves without magical stuff looks weird to me. In vanilla DF, they actually are a bit magical; animals never attacks them, trees are shaped at their will and grows the items they need to live, and are immortal.
I just want to give them a little of magic and spells so they're not like standard dwarves, but also not like warlocks. Since I don't like the idea of elves engaging trade (because they dislike it, and being able to turn upset the traders of your own civ looks weird), giving them the capability of protect themselves using spellsongs and druidism isn't unfair.

The idea of Golden Glass come to me after realizing that, without metals or gems, the elves would be forced to use only weak wooden weapons or (if you're lucky to find a volcano or a downward passage that gives you access to a magma pool) petrified versions of the same items. I was thinking in using amber as a weapon-grade material, but vanilla amber isn't pretty better than wood.
Another idea that could be great is adding a fake amber material that replaces the true amber in the reactions to forge weapons and armor, giving greater stats to the products than actual amber.

Treants will be simple: you produce treantish seeds using regular seeds and magic, plant them and wait until a treant sapling grows, then collect the plant and with a reaction you summon a child treant. The reactions to make the seeds and turning the sapling into an actual creature would not be cheap.

This idea about druid as necromancer analogue. And druid not mutate enemy in tree entirely, it's long process. But you can just use skill DRUIDE for wooden magic.

Elves are weak and crude, they must have all weapons not better than wooden. Amber is possible good, but not for items, only for coins.

They civ have no spells, no other RPG-like magic. Theyre magic must be like in vanilla - woodforming (grow different fruits and wooden items) and peace with animals. Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

Your understanding of elven magic is strange, if exist.

[Kiloku]

Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

That's why people make mods. 
It'd be really strange to make a mod to keep the game as it is. Mods are modifications, they change the base game to a new form.

[Rekov]

How will petrified wooden weapons compare to metal weapons? I guess my worry is that without access to at least okay weapons/armor, elves might be borderline unplayable. If the embark doesn't start with a volcano, you will have to wait for the cave teleportation option to get it?


I'm excited for this mod. The All Races Playable mod has elves, but like you said, it doesn't really feel terribly complete.

Also, it sounds like you're not limiting the elves quite as much. For example, your elves will still be able to farm, right?

[LargeSnail]

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Using the plant plugin, I can allow the player to grow the local trees. That's a good idea indeed.

Wild animals as visitors should be posible, using the Nature Shrine to call a wildbeast and giving it the status of a resident or a mercenary (so you can add it to your military without being able to assing any job). It should work in theory.

Idea for druides http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173966.0

Second idea - using druide skill for making grown wood armor, weapons and crafts. Workshop will be designed as growing tree in vanilla forest retreat, but possibly smaller.

Penalties from killing animals may be realized by invisible gas, that add synrome only to elves. But I think this may work strange and you need find another way.

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Dfhack can grow tree manually by using special workshop.

The idea of a druid that turns their enemies into trees looks strange to me; imagine being playing as a goblin adventurer, traveling through an elven retreat and suddenly dying 'cause a random druid attacked you with his magic. In a very, VERY old version of Dwarf Fortress, elves carried a druid ^{(or more)} with their army, and he was capable of turn your local trees into treants.

I already added the Grower's Garden, that uses the MAGIC_NATURE skill to grow free wooden items but those reactions can only be done in Spring (and will be canceled in any other season). A growing tree like the ones in the vanilla elven forests would be impossible to mod in.

I was thinking in using DFhack to track the death of any animal in the map, and if the killer was one of your elves then he or she would be marked as "hostile against wildlife" and thus being incapable of gaining the MAGIC_NATURE skill anymore.

My opinion - spellsongs, golden glass and fairy dragons isn't for dwarf fortress. Treants - possibly, but a lot kinds of magic is incongruous if add them to dwarf fortress.

While I'm not a fan of magic mods for DF -because they usually destroys the Legends Mode or only works with the dwarves of the player (and the magic is never applied in worldgen)- playing as the elves without magical stuff looks weird to me. In vanilla DF, they actually are a bit magical; animals never attacks them, trees are shaped at their will and grows the items they need to live, and are immortal.
I just want to give them a little of magic and spells so they're not like standard dwarves, but also not like warlocks. Since I don't like the idea of elves engaging trade (because they dislike it, and being able to turn upset the traders of your own civ looks weird), giving them the capability of protect themselves using spellsongs and druidism isn't unfair.

The idea of Golden Glass come to me after realizing that, without metals or gems, the elves would be forced to use only weak wooden weapons or (if you're lucky to find a volcano or a downward passage that gives you access to a magma pool) petrified versions of the same items. I was thinking in using amber as a weapon-grade material, but vanilla amber isn't pretty better than wood.
Another idea that could be great is adding a fake amber material that replaces the true amber in the reactions to forge weapons and armor, giving greater stats to the products than actual amber.

Treants will be simple: you produce treantish seeds using regular seeds and magic, plant them and wait until a treant sapling grows, then collect the plant and with a reaction you summon a child treant. The reactions to make the seeds and turning the sapling into an actual creature would not be cheap.

This idea about druid as necromancer analogue. And druid not mutate enemy in tree entirely, it's long process. But you can just use skill DRUIDE for wooden magic.

Elves are weak and crude, they must have all weapons not better than wooden. Amber is possible good, but not for items, only for coins.

They civ have no spells, no other RPG-like magic. Theyre magic must be like in vanilla - woodforming (grow different fruits and wooden items) and peace with animals. Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

Your understanding of elven magic is strange, if exist.

This is my answer:

Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

That's why people make mods. 
It'd be really strange to make a mod to keep the game as it is. Mods are modifications, they change the base game to a new form.

How will petrified wooden weapons compare to metal weapons? I guess my worry is that without access to at least okay weapons/armor, elves might be borderline unplayable. If the embark doesn't start with a volcano, you will have to wait for the cave teleportation option to get it?


I'm excited for this mod. The All Races Playable mod has elves, but like you said, it doesn't really feel terribly complete.

Also, it sounds like you're not limiting the elves quite as much. For example, your elves will still be able to farm, right?

Petrified weapons should not be available in every embark (or at least, not at the very beginning), but you should be capable of producing weapons and armor from bones or amber. Since elves can tame every single animal, your weak warriors will be helped by tigers and treants (and titans if you embark with one).

Quick Question: Should elves produce Mithril?

About farming, I'm not sure. Herbalism looks more fitting for the elves than regular human-like farming, and I could add the capability of creating new shrubs in the map via special reactions (seeds + some relatively expensive reagent = new bush/sapling).

The elves of my mod are very limited indeed -they can't trade with anyone and can't produce any wooden items unless it's Spring- but I want to keep them player-friendly enough to be enjoyable.

[DerMeister]

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Using the plant plugin, I can allow the player to grow the local trees. That's a good idea indeed.

Wild animals as visitors should be posible, using the Nature Shrine to call a wildbeast and giving it the status of a resident or a mercenary (so you can add it to your military without being able to assing any job). It should work in theory.

Idea for druides http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173966.0

Second idea - using druide skill for making grown wood armor, weapons and crafts. Workshop will be designed as growing tree in vanilla forest retreat, but possibly smaller.

Penalties from killing animals may be realized by invisible gas, that add synrome only to elves. But I think this may work strange and you need find another way.

Have you considered adding growable trees/treehouses? In vanilla df elves live in actual trees that can be visited in adventure mode.

It could also be cool to have wild animals show up as visitors to your temples and such.

Dfhack can grow tree manually by using special workshop.

The idea of a druid that turns their enemies into trees looks strange to me; imagine being playing as a goblin adventurer, traveling through an elven retreat and suddenly dying 'cause a random druid attacked you with his magic. In a very, VERY old version of Dwarf Fortress, elves carried a druid ^{(or more)} with their army, and he was capable of turn your local trees into treants.

I already added the Grower's Garden, that uses the MAGIC_NATURE skill to grow free wooden items but those reactions can only be done in Spring (and will be canceled in any other season). A growing tree like the ones in the vanilla elven forests would be impossible to mod in.

I was thinking in using DFhack to track the death of any animal in the map, and if the killer was one of your elves then he or she would be marked as "hostile against wildlife" and thus being incapable of gaining the MAGIC_NATURE skill anymore.

My opinion - spellsongs, golden glass and fairy dragons isn't for dwarf fortress. Treants - possibly, but a lot kinds of magic is incongruous if add them to dwarf fortress.

While I'm not a fan of magic mods for DF -because they usually destroys the Legends Mode or only works with the dwarves of the player (and the magic is never applied in worldgen)- playing as the elves without magical stuff looks weird to me. In vanilla DF, they actually are a bit magical; animals never attacks them, trees are shaped at their will and grows the items they need to live, and are immortal.
I just want to give them a little of magic and spells so they're not like standard dwarves, but also not like warlocks. Since I don't like the idea of elves engaging trade (because they dislike it, and being able to turn upset the traders of your own civ looks weird), giving them the capability of protect themselves using spellsongs and druidism isn't unfair.

The idea of Golden Glass come to me after realizing that, without metals or gems, the elves would be forced to use only weak wooden weapons or (if you're lucky to find a volcano or a downward passage that gives you access to a magma pool) petrified versions of the same items. I was thinking in using amber as a weapon-grade material, but vanilla amber isn't pretty better than wood.
Another idea that could be great is adding a fake amber material that replaces the true amber in the reactions to forge weapons and armor, giving greater stats to the products than actual amber.

Treants will be simple: you produce treantish seeds using regular seeds and magic, plant them and wait until a treant sapling grows, then collect the plant and with a reaction you summon a child treant. The reactions to make the seeds and turning the sapling into an actual creature would not be cheap.

This idea about druid as necromancer analogue. And druid not mutate enemy in tree entirely, it's long process. But you can just use skill DRUIDE for wooden magic.

Elves are weak and crude, they must have all weapons not better than wooden. Amber is possible good, but not for items, only for coins.

They civ have no spells, no other RPG-like magic. Theyre magic must be like in vanilla - woodforming (grow different fruits and wooden items) and peace with animals. Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

Your understanding of elven magic is strange, if exist.

This is my answer:

Dwarf Fortress is not a game that contains magic spells.

That's why people make mods. 
It'd be really strange to make a mod to keep the game as it is. Mods are modifications, they change the base game to a new form.

How will petrified wooden weapons compare to metal weapons? I guess my worry is that without access to at least okay weapons/armor, elves might be borderline unplayable. If the embark doesn't start with a volcano, you will have to wait for the cave teleportation option to get it?


I'm excited for this mod. The All Races Playable mod has elves, but like you said, it doesn't really feel terribly complete.

Also, it sounds like you're not limiting the elves quite as much. For example, your elves will still be able to farm, right?

Petrified weapons should not be available in every embark (or at least, not at the very beginning), but you should be capable of producing weapons and armor from bones or amber. Since elves can tame every single animal, your weak warriors will be helped by tigers and treants (and titans if you embark with one).

Quick Question: Should elves produce Mithril?

About farming, I'm not sure. Herbalism looks more fitting for the elves than regular human-like farming, and I could add the capability of creating new shrubs in the map via special reactions (seeds + some relatively expensive reagent = new bush/sapling).

The elves of my mod are very limited indeed -they can't trade with anyone and can't produce any wooden items unless it's Spring- but I want to keep them player-friendly enough to be enjoyable.

You not full understand elves. Theyre civ is weak and hard to play (in my WIP mod elves for !!FUN!!, humans for less fun, dwarves for regular play and goblins for new players). Also elves is biological civilisation, they have no materials better than wood (only bone, but killing animals is forbidden). If you think thay cannot live without metal-grade items, you not understand elves. But you can combine you mod with zakkum tree from my another mod (if credits). Zakkum is evil underground tree that immune to dragonfire and has fruits made of meat.

[Meph]

LargeSnail, I envy your patience. Best of luck with the mod.

About mithril, let me quote the wiki on LOTR (since I assume it's what you'd base it on): In Tolkien's Middle-earth, mithril is extremely rare by the end of the Third Age, as it was now found only in Khazad-dûm. Once the Balrog destroyed Khazad-dûm, the kingdom of the Dwarves in Moria, the only source of new mithril ore was cut off. Before Moria was abandoned by the Dwarves, while it was still being actively mined, mithril was worth ten times its weight in gold.[2] After the Dwarves abandoned Moria and production of new mithril stopped entirely, it became priceless.

Aka: Mithril is a dwarven metal, not elven.

[Kiloku]

If you do go with Mithril (or some other name for a similar material), it'd need to be about as risky and difficult to obtain as Adamantine. 

I guess it'd be no fun for it to be a metal deep underground like Adamantine. Mining a special metal doesn't seem very elvish. What's your plan for it?

[brolol.404]

I would reconsider only growing items in spring. That a long rest of the year that the player cant do much.

[LargeSnail]

LargeSnail, I envy your patience. Best of luck with the mod.

About mithril, let me quote the wiki on LOTR (since I assume it's what you'd base it on): In Tolkien's Middle-earth, mithril is extremely rare by the end of the Third Age, as it was now found only in Khazad-dûm. Once the Balrog destroyed Khazad-dûm, the kingdom of the Dwarves in Moria, the only source of new mithril ore was cut off. Before Moria was abandoned by the Dwarves, while it was still being actively mined, mithril was worth ten times its weight in gold.[2] After the Dwarves abandoned Moria and production of new mithril stopped entirely, it became priceless.

Aka: Mithril is a dwarven metal, not elven.

Thanks Meph

I was thinking in your Masterwork mod, where (according to the DF Wiki) elves could sell and produce mithril.
I don't like metalsmithing for the elves, but I could make an exception with mithril. Adding a Coldworking Forge to produce mithril weapons and armor without fuel (with the probability of producing a worn item instead of a regular one, to simulate product deficiency) looks fine to me, but I want to make it something difficult to reach.

I agree with @DerMeister , the elves should be difficult to play with. I would like to add some metal, like mithril or something else, as an late game resource.

If you do go with Mithril (or some other name for a similar material), it'd need to be about as risky and difficult to obtain as Adamantine. 

I guess it'd be no fun for it to be a metal deep underground like Adamantine. Mining a special metal doesn't seem very elvish. What's your plan for it?

Sure, Mithril (or whatever be the name I'll give to that elven metal) must be something hard to obtain. While mining isn't an option, it could be reached through alchemy or magic.

I would reconsider only growing items in spring. That a long rest of the year that the player cant do much.

The idea of only growing items in Spring is something like an incentive for the player to develop another industries. Producing infinite amounts of any good for free is very cheat. Why would someone create amber beds, wicker furniture or ceramic goods if their wooden versions are always free?

I need more ideas for elven industries. These are the ones that I've in mind:

• Petrified Wood Industry (uses engraver skill and petrified wooden logs to produce weapons and furniture at the Stonecutter's Shop)
• Grown Wood Industry (already explained)
• Amber Industry (uses gemcutting skill and rough amber to produce weapons and furniture at the Ambercutter's Atelier)
• Wicker Industry (uses herbalist skill and wicker from plants to produce wicker stuff at the Wicker Works)
• Alchemy Industry (uses alchemist skill and differents reagents to produce potions, soap, fuel from oil and better materials at the Alchemist's Workshop and the Elven Athanor)

What could I add?

[brolol.404]

I think a lot more could potentially be done with animals and the animal trainer/care skills. Maybe ways to train animals past just "war". Maybe even train them to do other things too.